Alla
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19-02-2014, 07:33 PM
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 11:39 AM)Stevil Wrote:  1. Sure Youkay had the knowledge to understand what you meant despite your misleading statement.
2. Youkay then gave you the courtesy of the doubt and assumed it was an honest mistake.

There was no mistake. Just because you can't understand something doesn't mean that it is mistaken. Your English reading comprehension skills are lacking.
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19-02-2014, 08:19 PM
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 07:33 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(19-02-2014 11:39 AM)Stevil Wrote:  1. Sure Youkay had the knowledge to understand what you meant despite your misleading statement.
2. Youkay then gave you the courtesy of the doubt and assumed it was an honest mistake.

There was no mistake. Just because you can't understand something doesn't mean that it is mistaken. Your English reading comprehension skills are lacking.
Your statement was incorrect. I've clearly shown that, but hey.
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19-02-2014, 08:21 PM
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 08:19 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(19-02-2014 07:33 PM)Chippy Wrote:  There was no mistake. Just because you can't understand something doesn't mean that it is mistaken. Your English reading comprehension skills are lacking.
Your statement was incorrect. I've clearly shown that, but hey.

No, you've shown nothing other than your reading comprehension is lacking.
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19-02-2014, 10:40 PM
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 08:21 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(19-02-2014 08:19 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Your statement was incorrect. I've clearly shown that, but hey.

No, you've shown nothing other than your reading comprehension is lacking.
Your actual statement was
Quote:Whatever benefit--if any at all--can be realised by just taking them at the RDA.
This statement was confused.
On the one hand you are showing that you don't know if there are any benefits
"if any at all"
and on the other hand you are setting a limit with regards to how much intake is needed to achieve benefits for a sufferer of depression.
You are clearly contradicting yourself within the space of just one sentence.

It seems now, you and Youkay are both saying that there are no benefits with regards to depression from taking vitamins even if the sufferer is deficient.
This would mean that vitamin intake is irrelevant for addressing depression. But that is not what your claim states.
Your claim states that if there are benefits then they can be realised by taking vitamins at the RDA levels.
As far as I am aware there is no evidence supporting this claim. You just made it up. I asked you to support your claim and surprise, surprise, you couldn't support it.
Your statement is clearly not based on factual evidence.
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19-02-2014, 11:30 PM (This post was last modified: 19-02-2014 11:53 PM by Chippy.)
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 10:40 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(19-02-2014 08:21 PM)Chippy Wrote:  No, you've shown nothing other than your reading comprehension is lacking.
Your actual statement was
Quote:Whatever benefit--if any at all--can be realised by just taking them at the RDA.
This statement was confused.
On the one hand you are showing that you don't know if there are any benefits
"if any at all"
and on the other hand you are setting a limit with regards to how much intake is needed to achieve benefits for a sufferer of depression.
You are clearly contradicting yourself within the space of just one sentence.

No, I am not contradicting myself. Again your reading comprehension just sucks. Perhaps an analogy will help you understand your error.

If someone says "ranitidine will not help your diarrhoea"--that is all that they are saying. They are not not saying that if you have diarrhoea and gastric reflux ranitidine will not help your gastric reflux. If you have gastric reflux and diarrhoea the ranitidine will help the gastric reflux.

That is standard English semantics.

Quote:It seems now, you and Youkay are both saying that there are no benefits with regards to depression from taking vitamins even if the sufferer is deficient.
This would mean that vitamin intake is irrelevant for addressing depression.

Yes, that is what we are saying i.e. the symptoms of the depression will not improve but if the person has nutritional deficiencies their deficiency symptoms will of course improve. That goes without saying.

Quote: But that is not what your claim states.

Yes it it does, you just can't understand conventional English semantics.

Quote:Your claim states that if there are benefits then they can be realised by taking vitamins at the RDA levels.

Yes, the normal benefits that follow from ingesting nutrients, e.g. you'll get fewer leg cramps if you have adequate magnesium in your diet. Vitamins aren't drugs, they are nutrients so certain benefits follow from consuming them.

Quote:As far as I am aware there is no evidence supporting this claim. You just made it up.

So you think I am making up the idea that consuming micronutrients at the RDA is beneficial? So I'm making up the idea that humans benefit from food?

Quote:I asked you to support your claim and surprise, surprise, you couldn't support it.
Your statement is clearly not based on factual evidence.

Which claim? I made two claims.

(1) There is no evidence that ingestion of vitamins and minerals at supraphysiological doses can treat MDD; and

(2) Any benefit of vitamin and mineral ingestion if you have MDD can be realised by consuming them at the RDA.

Claim (2) is not proposing that a person's MDD will improve if they ingest nutrients at the RDA; it is a general statement about the benefits of proper nutrition as defined by the RDA of vitamins and minerals.

You don't understand what you are reading.
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19-02-2014, 11:44 PM
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 10:40 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It seems now, you and Youkay are both saying that there are no benefits with regards to depression from taking vitamins even if the sufferer is deficient.

Stevil, no.

If a person has vitamin deficiency, taking vitamins will help (obviously).
If a person has depression, there is no reason or basis to assume that taking vitamins will be of any benefit.
If a person has BOTH vitamin deficiency AND depression, taking vitamins will help counteract vitamin deficiency, but there is no reason or basis to assume that taking vitamins will be of any benefit to treat depression.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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19-02-2014, 11:50 PM (This post was last modified: 19-02-2014 11:58 PM by Chippy.)
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 10:40 PM)Stevil Wrote:  This statement was confused.

No you are confused. I re-read your post and your claim is completely absurd.

Quote:On the one hand you are showing that you don't know if there are any benefits
"if any at all"
and on the other hand you are setting a limit with regards to how much intake is needed to achieve benefits for a sufferer of depression.
You are clearly contradicting yourself within the space of just one sentence.

Your claim that I am agreeing with Mark Fulton is utter nonsense. You are distorting what I wrote to try and invert my intended meaning.

My statement:

Whatever benefit--if any at all--can be realised by just taking them at the RDA.

has nothing to do with the symptoms of MDD. It is a repetition of what I have been saying from the outset, i.e. that with regard to nutrition there is no evidence that people with MDD constitute a sub-population. People with MDD need to eat food, their dietary needs are the same as everybody else hence any specific benefit--if any at all--of proper nutrition will be realised by just following the RDA.
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19-02-2014, 11:54 PM
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 11:44 PM)Youkay Wrote:  
(19-02-2014 10:40 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It seems now, you and Youkay are both saying that there are no benefits with regards to depression from taking vitamins even if the sufferer is deficient.

Stevil, no.

If a person has vitamin deficiency, taking vitamins will help (obviously).
It's about context.
We are concerning ourselves with depression only, not other possible medical problems.

Either vitamins help towards depression or they do not.

If they do not help towards depression then they are irrelevant for that condition.
The RDA level of vitamins will thus do nothing to alleviate a patient from their depression (even if they happen to be deficient).

If the vitamins do alleviate a patient from their depression then we must conclude that vitamins are not irrelevant to this condition.


(19-02-2014 11:44 PM)Youkay Wrote:  If a person has BOTH vitamin deficiency AND depression, taking vitamins will help counteract vitamin deficiency
That's fine, but the context of the statement and the conversation was with regards to depression.

Whether a person should or should not take vitamins is another matter entirely.
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19-02-2014, 11:57 PM
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 11:54 PM)Stevil Wrote:  The RDA level of vitamins will thus do nothing to alleviate a patient from their depression.

And no one suggested or implied otherwise.

Quote:Whether a person should or should not take vitamins is another matter entirely.

No it isn't because the actual discussion was about mega-doses of vitamins.
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20-02-2014, 12:00 AM
RE: Alla
(19-02-2014 11:30 PM)Chippy Wrote:  No, I am not contradicting myself. Again your reading comprehension just sucks. Perhaps an analogy will help you understand your error.

If someone says "ranitidine will not help your diarrhoea"--that is all that they are saying. They are not not saying that if you have diarrhoea and gastric reflux ranitidine will not help your gastric reflux. If you have gastric reflux and diarrhoea the ranitidine will help the gastric reflux.

That is standard English semantics.
Maybe you don't understand what "context" means?

(19-02-2014 11:30 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
Quote:Your claim states that if there are benefits then they can be realised by taking vitamins at the RDA levels.

Yes, the normal benefits that follow from ingesting nutrients, e.g. you'll get fewer leg cramps if you have adequate magnesium in your diet. Vitamins aren't drugs, they are nutrients so certain benefits follow from consuming them.
The context of the conversation was with regards to depression.

(19-02-2014 11:30 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
Quote:As far as I am aware there is no evidence supporting this claim. You just made it up.

So you think I am making up the idea that consuming micronutrients at the RDA is beneficial? So I'm making up the idea that humans benefit from food?
I agree that there are benefits to ingesting vitamins.
But it seems with regards to the condition of depression then vitamin ingestion or deficiency is irrelevant.
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