Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
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07-11-2015, 07:13 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(07-11-2015 06:59 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(07-11-2015 06:40 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Pathetically weak, Alla.
Is da spirit having an off day?

I respectfully disagree. Jesus was teaching about God and His Kingdom in this chapter.
It was a story about Kingdom of God. Jesus didn't tell His disciples to attack people according to the Bible. Jesus did not attack people according to the Bible.

Jesus did not attack people according to the Bible.

Alla, you ain't read your babble...Jeebus repeatedly threatened violence...

“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force” (Matt. 11:12, KJV.)

“Then he began to reproach the towns in which most of his miracles had been worked, because they refused to repent. ‘Alas for you Chorazin! Alas for you Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon they would have repented long ago in sack cloth and ashes. And still I tell you it will not go as hard on Judgment day on Tyre and Sidon as with you. And as for you Capernaum, did you want to be exalted as high as heaven? You shall be thrown down into hell. For if the miracles done in you had been done in Sodom, you would have been standing yet. And still I tell you that it will not go as hard with the land of Sodom on Judgment day as with you” (Matt. 11:20–24, NJB.)

“If you have no sword, sell your cloak and buy one” (Luke 22:36, NJB.)

“Anyone who believes in the Son has eternal life, but anyone who refuses to believe in the Son will never see life: the anger of God stays on him” (John 3:33, NJB.)

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16, NJB.)

“But as for my enemies who did not want me for their king, bring them here and execute them in my presence” (Luke 19:27, NJB.)

“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! ...woe to you, blind guides...You blind fools!... You blind men!... You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?” (Matt. 23:13–34, NJB.)

“Well then, just as the darnel is gathered up and burnt in the fire, so it will be at the end of time. The Son of Man will send his angels and they will gather out of his kingdom all things that provoke offences and all who do evil, and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth” (Matt. 13:40–43, NJB.)

“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth: it is not peace I have come to bring, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter in law against her mother in law. A man’s enemies will be those of his own household. Anyone who prefers father or mother to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who prefers son or daughter to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who does not take his cross and follow in my footsteps is not worthy of me. Anyone who finds his life will lose it; anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it” (Matt. 10:34–39, NJB.)
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07-11-2015, 07:18 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
MARK's quote:
The truth is more complicated, however. Mormonism did not suddenly “turn racist” when Smith died. Even while Smith was alive and running the church, Nauvoo prohibited interracial marriage and restricted voting and office-holding to white men.

ALLA:
may be it is because black men where somebody's slaves?

MARK's quote:
And during the earlier Missouri period when the Saints were accused of over-friendly relations with African Americans, Mormons tried to deny the charges by promising they would “prevent [free blacks] from being admitted as members of the Church.” Joseph Smith said in 1838 that “the curse” was “not yet taken off the sons of Canaan,” although he also struck several racist statements from the official history of the Church when it was compiled that same year.*
ALLA:
I am confused. LDS had African Americans as members of the Church and ordained as priests. They accused of being too friendly to black people But they are racists.

MARK'S quote:
As for priesthood, Young said that “any man having one drop of the seed of Cane in him Cannot hold the priesthood, & if no other Prophet ever spake it Before I will say it now in the name of Jesus Christ.”
ALLA:
did he say: black people can not have priesthood? did he say: black people can not be members of the Church?

MARK'S quote:
He went on to say that “the day will Come when all the seed of Cane will be Redeemed & have all the Blessings we have now & a great deal more”—presumably including the priesthood—but that “the seed of Abel will be ahead of the seed of Cane to all Eternity.”**

ALLA: what is so racist about this? I am confused. Please, help me to understand.

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07-11-2015, 07:21 PM (This post was last modified: 07-11-2015 11:03 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(07-11-2015 07:07 PM)Alla Wrote:  So, Mark, I am glad you agree that neither Jesus nor Joseph Smith were racists. It is good.
That is why you found another person to accuse in racism. Nice. Very nice.

MARK:
So today I took a look at the comments, and I don’t see a “raging” discussion on that topic, nor do I see evidence that contemporary Mormons hold views that people with black skin are “descendants of Cain.” Am I missing something?
I don't know what it has to do with Paul and your false claims about what Paul said but I will answer your question.
I think you are missing something.

"So, Mark, I am glad you agree that neither Jesus nor Joseph Smith were racists"

You have a habit of reading something and managing to interpret it in the very opposite way that the author intended.

Jeebus was a racist...

Most Christians assume Jesus loved anyone who accepted him; that Jesus had a personal interest in each and every individual. Yet they misunderstand their main man. Jesus did not love Gentiles (who he referred to as pagans.) He told his disciples:

“Do not turn your steps to pagan territory, and do not enter any Samaritan town. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel” (Matt. 10:6, NJB.) He said:

“I was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel” (Matt. 15:24, NJB.)

Jesus even told his fellow Jews not to pray like pagans (non Jewish people):

“And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him” (Matt. 6:7–8, NJB.)

Here is Jesus’ encounter with a Greek (i.e. non-Jewish) woman:

“He left that place and set out for the territory of Tyre. There he went into a house and did not want anyone to know he was there, but he could not pass unrecognized. A woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit heard about him straight away and came and fell at his feet. Now the woman was pagan, by birth a Syrophonecian and she begged him to cast the devil out of her daughter and he said to her ‘the children should be fed first, because it is not fair to take the children’s food and throw it to the house dogs’. But she spoke up ‘Ah yes sir’ she replied ‘but the house dogs under the table can eat the children’s scraps’. And he said to her ‘for saying this, you may go home happy; the devil has gone out of your daughter’. So she went off to her home and found the child lying on the bed and the devil gone” (Mark 7:24–30, NJB.)

Jesus was drawing an analogy. The children were his fellow Jews, who were to be fed first. Gentiles were referred to as dogs, (when Jews wished to insult someone they often referred to them as dogs) whom Jesus would rather not help. Jesus hesitated before healing the girl because her mother was not Jewish.

Caesaria was the capital of Judea and Sepphoris the capital of Galilee, yet there is no record that Jesus ever visited either city, despite their size and importance, possibly because Gentiles popu- lated them. Jesus could have taken his mission outside Palestine. Egyptians, Greeks, Africans, and Romans might have been wowed by his words of wisdom, yet he did not bother with them either, as they too were in Gentile territories.

These few passages suggest that Jesus was xenophobic. If Yeshua were an insurrectionist trying to start a war, preaching platitudes to Gentiles would have been the last thing on his mind. It is possible these statements reflect Yeshua’s real attitude.

People who push the “Jesus loves you” line need to read their Bibles more carefully, and should try to understand the real history. It is obvious Jesus did not even like you unless you were Jewish.

It is true there are other quotes that portray Jesus as a preacher for all people. It is probable Gentile authors have added these to try to give Jesus universal appeal, yet these quotes cannot compensate for Jesus’ bigotry.
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07-11-2015, 07:30 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
ALLA:
Jesus did not attack people according to the Bible.
MARK:
Alla, you ain't read your babble...Jeebus repeatedly threatened violence...
“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force” (Matt. 11:12, KJV.)
ALLA:
I don't see it says that Jesus is attacking someone or that Jesus tells His disciples to attack someone.

MARK:
“Then he began to reproach the towns in which most of his miracles had been worked, because they refused to repent. ‘Alas for you Chorazin! Alas for you Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon they would have repented long ago in sack cloth and ashes. And still I tell you it will not go as hard on Judgment day on Tyre and Sidon as with you. And as for you Capernaum, did you want to be exalted as high as heaven? You shall be thrown down into hell. For if the miracles done in you had been done in Sodom, you would have been standing yet. And still I tell you that it will not go as hard with the land of Sodom on Judgment day as with you” (Matt. 11:20–24, NJB.)
ALLA: Nope, I don't see it says that Jesus is attacking someone or is telling His disciples to attack people.

MARK:
“If you have no sword, sell your cloak and buy one” (Luke 22:36, NJB.)
ALLA:
Yes, He says to His disciples who were free men and not slaves according to the Bible to defend themselves. Paul did not tell free men not to defend themselves.

MARK:
“Anyone who believes in the Son has eternal life, but anyone who refuses to believe in the Son will never see life: the anger of God stays on him” (John 3:33, NJB.)
ALLA:
Yes, anger of God. I don't see Jesus is attacking someone or tells His disciples to attack masters, to hate enemies.

MARK:
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16, NJB.)
ALLA:
the same, I don't see what you claim Jesus was doing.

MARK:
“But as for my enemies who did not want me for their king, bring them here and execute them in my presence” (Luke 19:27, NJB.)
ALLA:
already explained.

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07-11-2015, 07:36 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
MARK:
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth: it is not peace I have come to bring, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter in law against her mother in law. A man’s enemies will be those of his own household. Anyone who prefers father or mother to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who prefers son or daughter to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who does not take his cross and follow in my footsteps is not worthy of me. Anyone who finds his life will lose it; anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it” (Matt. 10:34–39, NJB.)

ALLA:
Nope, I don't see Jesus is attacking anybody or telling to attack someone. I don't see He says not to love enemy, not to serve masters.

Jesus only says that He didn't come to bring peace to the Earth, but a sward. WOW! How did He know this? How did He know that non-Christian will hate Christian? How did He know that one Christian will hate another Christian because they disagree on a doctrine? How did He know that Muslims will hate Christians and kill them? How did He know that Christians will hate Muslims and kill them? How did he know that Christians will hate Jews?
Yes, truly He didn't bring peace.
But did He say that this is what He wants? Or He just prophesied what people will do to each other because of Him?
Does Mark know correct(true) answer? I doubt.

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07-11-2015, 07:47 PM (This post was last modified: 07-11-2015 07:53 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(07-11-2015 07:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  MARK's quote:
The truth is more complicated, however. Mormonism did not suddenly “turn racist” when Smith died. Even while Smith was alive and running the church, Nauvoo prohibited interracial marriage and restricted voting and office-holding to white men.

ALLA:
may be it is because black men where somebody's slaves?

MARK's quote:
And during the earlier Missouri period when the Saints were accused of over-friendly relations with African Americans, Mormons tried to deny the charges by promising they would “prevent [free blacks] from being admitted as members of the Church.” Joseph Smith said in 1838 that “the curse” was “not yet taken off the sons of Canaan,” although he also struck several racist statements from the official history of the Church when it was compiled that same year.*
ALLA:
I am confused. LDS had African Americans as members of the Church and ordained as priests. They accused of being too friendly to black people But they are racists.

MARK'S quote:
As for priesthood, Young said that “any man having one drop of the seed of Cane in him Cannot hold the priesthood, & if no other Prophet ever spake it Before I will say it now in the name of Jesus Christ.”
ALLA:
did he say: black people can not have priesthood? did he say: black people can not be members of the Church?

MARK'S quote:
He went on to say that “the day will Come when all the seed of Cane will be Redeemed & have all the Blessings we have now & a great deal more”—presumably including the priesthood—but that “the seed of Abel will be ahead of the seed of Cane to all Eternity.”**

ALLA: what is so racist about this? I am confused. Please, help me to understand.

"ALLA: what is so racist about this? I am confused. Please, help me to understand."

Allah, to be honest I'm not sure whether this plea is genuine or not. You do not need me to teach you about racism in your own church. Just use the Internet. You could perhaps start here... Here is a cut-and-paste.... it clearly describes racism in the book of Mormon (Written by Joseph Smith) and examples of Mormon racism that continued well into the 20th century.


RACISM Quotes from Established Mormon Leaders

Racist Quotation From Mormon Official Source


"And [The LORD] had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity.
For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint;
wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
22 And thus saith the Lord God:
I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.
23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed;
for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing.
And the Lord spake it, and it was done.
24 And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey.
note:

2Nephi was changed from 'white and delightsome' to 'pure and delightsome' in the 1978 edition of the Book of Mormon.

The phrase 'pure and delightsome' was actually in the original BofM manuscript, but got changed to 'white and delightsome' in one of the early editions and stayed that way until the corrections were made in 1978.
BOOK OF MORMON 2 Nephi 5:21

"There is a reason why one man is BORN BLACK and with other DISADVANTAGES while another is BORN WHITE with great ADVANTAGES.
The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there.
Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less."
Mormon President and Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, "Doctrines of Salvation", pp. 61.

"There were no neutrals in the war in heaven.
All took sides either with Christ or with Satan.
Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body.
The Negro, evidently, is RECEIVING THE REWARD HE MERITS."
Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, "Doctrines of Salvation", pp. 65-66.


"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race?
If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot.
This will always be so."
Journal of Discourses, 2nd Mormon Prophet and President Brigham Young

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.
The first man who committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam.
Cain slew his brother.
Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings.
This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon Cain, which is the flat nose and black skin.
Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the 'servant of servants;' and they will be, until that curse is removed;"
Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, pg. 290-291.

"Think of the Negreo, cursed as to the priesthood....
This negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in their lineage of Cain with a black skin, and possibly being born in darkest Africa
--if that negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel.
In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessins of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost.
If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there AS A SERVANT, but he will get celestial glory."
Race Problems--As They Affect The Church, By Mark Petersen, August 27, 1954.

...in a broad general sense, caste systems have their origin in the gospel itself, and when they operate according to the divine decree, the resultant restrictions and segregation are right and proper and have the approval of the lord.
To illustrate: Cain, Ham, and the whole negro race have been cursed with a black skin, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a caste apart, a people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry.

From Bruce R. McConkie's book "Mormon Doctrine", 1958 edition, pages 107-108

"It is the Mormon belief that in our pre-mortal state there were a large number of individuals who, due to some act or behavior of their own in the pre-existence, forfeited the right to hold the Priesthood during their mortal lives,...
The Negro is thus denied the Priesthood because of his own behavior in the pre-existence."
The Church and the Negro, pp. 42-42.

"Though he was rebel and an ASSOCIATE OF LUCIFER in pre-existence, and though he was a liar from the beginning whose name was Perdition, Cain was cursed with a dark skin; he became the father of the Negroes, and those spirits who are not worthy to receive the priesthood are born though his lineage.
[Cain] became the first mortal to be cursed as a son of perdition.
As a result of his mortal birth he is assured of a tangible body of flesh and bones in eternity, a fact which will enable him to rule over Satan."
Mormon Doctrine, pp. 102.


"Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood;
under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.
The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them...
Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned..."
note: it was taught that even "one drop of Negro blood" would prevent a person from holding the priesthood or marrying in the temple.
Later Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, 1954

"And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Hams' wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood?
Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representative upon the earth as well as God."
John Taylor (third prophet and President) Journal of Discourses, Vol. 22, pg. 304.

Through Ham (a name meaning black) the blood of the Canaanites was preserved through the flood, Ham having married Egyptus, a descendent of Cain. Mormon Doctrine, pg. 343.

" those assigned to a dishonorable body on this earth came through the accursed lineage of Canaan through Ham's wife who was a descendent of the first murderer Cain,..."
That Ye May Not Be Deceived, pg. 6-7.

"God has commanded Israel not to intermarry.
To go against this commandment of God would be in sin.
Those who willfully sin with their eyes open to this wrong will not be surprised to find that they will be separated from the presence of God in the world to come.
This is spiritual death....
The reason that one would lose his blessings by marrying a Negro is due to the restriction placed upon them.
'No person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood.'
(Peterson is quoting 2nd prophet Brigham Young here.)

It does not matter if they are one-sixth Negro or one-hundred and sixth, the curse of no Priesthood is the same.
If an individual who is entitled to the Priesthood marries a Negro, the Lord has decreed that only spirits who are not eligible for the Priesthood will come to that marriage as children.
To intermarry with a Negro is to forfeit a 'Nation of Priesthood holders.'" Race Problems -- As They Affect The Church, Address by APOSTLE Mark E. Petersen at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954.

"The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last 20 years, has drawn some very sharp lines.
It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe.
They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent, and then, of course, they have been persuaded by some of the arguments that have been put forth...
We who teach in the Church certainly must have our feet on the ground and not to be led astray by the philosophies of men on this subject...
"I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the negro is after.
He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat.
He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people.
It isn't that he just desires to go the same theater as the white people.
From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the negro seeks absorbtion with the white race.
He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage.
That is his objective and we must face it.
We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have.
Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, 'First we pity, then endure, then embrace.'...
"Now let's talk about segregation again for a few moments.
Was segregation a wrong principle?
when the Lord chose the nations to which the spirits were to come, determining that some would be Japanese and some would be Chinese and some Negroes and some Americans, He engaged in an act of segregation...
When he told Enoch not preach the gospel to the descendants of Cain who were black, the Lord engaged in segregation.
When He cursed the descendants of Cain as to the Priesthood, He engaged in segregation...
"Who placed the Negroes originally in darkest Africa?
Was it some man, or was it God?
And when He placed them there, He segregated them...
"The Lord segregated the people both as to blood and place of residence.
At least in the cases of the Lamanites and the Negro we have the definite word of the Lord Himself that he placed a dark skin upon them as a curse
-- as a punishment and as a sign to all others.
He forbade intermarriage with them under threat of extension of the curse.
And He certainly segregated the descendants of Cain when He cursed the Negro as to the Priesthood, and drew an absolute line.
You may even say He dropped an Iron curtain there....
"Now we are generous with the negro.
We are willing that the Negro have the highest education.
I would be willing to let every Negro drive a cadillac if they could afford it.
I would be willing that they have all the advantages they can get out of life in the world.
But let them enjoy these things among themselves.
I think the Lord segregated the Negro and who is man to change that segregation?
It reminds me of the scripture on marriage, 'what God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.'
Only here we have the reverse of the thing -- what God hath separated, let not man bring together again."
Race Problems -- As They Affect The Church, Address by Mark E. Petersen at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah,August 27, 1954.

"For instance, the descendants of Cain cannot cast off their skin of blackness, at once, and immediately, although every soul of them should repent,...
Cain and his posterity must wear the mark which God put upon them; and his white friends may wash the race of Cain with fuller's soap every day, they cannot wash away God's mark;...."
Mormon Publication: Millennial Star, Vol. 14, pg. 418.

"I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today...
The day of the Lamanites is nigh.
For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised.
In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos, five were darker but equally delightsome
The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.
"At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl--sixteen--sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents--on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather...
These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness.
One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated."
Later Mormon Prophet and President Mr. Kimball (Spencer W.), speaking at the General Conference meeting, October, 1960, quoted in Mormon Publication: Improvement Era, December 1960, pp. 922-923.

"Of the thousands of children born today, a certain proportion of them went to the Hottentots of the south seas, thousands went to Negro mothers, thousands to beautiful white Latter-day Saint Mothers."
Melvin J. Ballard

"That the negro is markedly inferior to the Caucasian is proved both craniologically and by six thousand years of planet-wide experimentation."
B.H. Roberts-the Seventy's Course in Theology

"Last in order stands the Negro race, the lowest in intelligence and the most barbarous of all the children of men."
The Juvenile Instructor (a Church magazine)

"We are asked if the natives of New Zealand and of the Samoan society and Sandwich Islands are descendants of the Nephites (white people) or of the Lamanites (American Indians)...
.It is plain from the history of the Book of Mormon that this dark skin has been brought upon them by transgression.
Whether this transgression occurred before they left this (American) continent or afterwards is not clear."
(LDS Children's Publication: The Juvenile Instructor, vol. 30, p. 129.)

"It is very clear that the mark which was set upon the descendants of Cain was a skin of blackness...
It has been noticed in our day that men who have lost the spirit of the Lord, and from whom His blessings have been withdrawn, have TURNED DARK to such an extent as to excite the comments of all who have known them."
Juvenile Instructor (vol. 26, p. 635)


All quotes from http://yhvh.name/?w=548
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07-11-2015, 08:02 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(07-11-2015 07:36 PM)Alla Wrote:  MARK:
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth: it is not peace I have come to bring, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter in law against her mother in law. A man’s enemies will be those of his own household. Anyone who prefers father or mother to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who prefers son or daughter to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who does not take his cross and follow in my footsteps is not worthy of me. Anyone who finds his life will lose it; anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it” (Matt. 10:34–39, NJB.)

ALLA:
Nope, I don't see Jesus is attacking anybody or telling to attack someone. I don't see He says not to love enemy, not to serve masters.

Jesus only says that He didn't come to bring peace to the Earth, but a sward. WOW! How did He know this? How did He know that non-Christian will hate Christian? How did He know that one Christian will hate another Christian because they disagree on a doctrine? How did He know that Muslims will hate Christians and kill them? How did He know that Christians will hate Muslims and kill them? How did he know that Christians will hate Jews?
Yes, truly He didn't bring peace.
But did He say that this is what He wants? Or He just prophesied what people will do to each other because of Him?
Does Mark know correct(true) answer? I doubt.

"But did He say that this is what He wants? Or He just prophesied what people will do to each other because of Him?
Does Mark know correct(true) answer? I doubt."


Actually I do think I know the answer to that question. Yet it takes about 10 pages to explain it, and I don't think you're genuinely interested in history, so unless you change my mind I won't answer.

PS

re Yes, truly He didn't bring peace.

I'm tentatively encouraged that you might be starting to think.
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07-11-2015, 11:17 PM (This post was last modified: 07-11-2015 11:21 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(07-11-2015 07:30 PM)Alla Wrote:  ALLA:
Jesus did not attack people according to the Bible.
MARK:
Alla, you ain't read your babble...Jeebus repeatedly threatened violence...
“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force” (Matt. 11:12, KJV.)
ALLA:
I don't see it says that Jesus is attacking someone or that Jesus tells His disciples to attack someone.

MARK:
“Then he began to reproach the towns in which most of his miracles had been worked, because they refused to repent. ‘Alas for you Chorazin! Alas for you Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon they would have repented long ago in sack cloth and ashes. And still I tell you it will not go as hard on Judgment day on Tyre and Sidon as with you. And as for you Capernaum, did you want to be exalted as high as heaven? You shall be thrown down into hell. For if the miracles done in you had been done in Sodom, you would have been standing yet. And still I tell you that it will not go as hard with the land of Sodom on Judgment day as with you” (Matt. 11:20–24, NJB.)
ALLA: Nope, I don't see it says that Jesus is attacking someone or is telling His disciples to attack people.

MARK:
“If you have no sword, sell your cloak and buy one” (Luke 22:36, NJB.)
ALLA:
Yes, He says to His disciples who were free men and not slaves according to the Bible to defend themselves. Paul did not tell free men not to defend themselves.

MARK:
“Anyone who believes in the Son has eternal life, but anyone who refuses to believe in the Son will never see life: the anger of God stays on him” (John 3:33, NJB.)
ALLA:
Yes, anger of God. I don't see Jesus is attacking someone or tells His disciples to attack masters, to hate enemies.

MARK:
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16, NJB.)
ALLA:
the same, I don't see what you claim Jesus was doing.

MARK:
“But as for my enemies who did not want me for their king, bring them here and execute them in my presence” (Luke 19:27, NJB.)
ALLA:
already explained.

Alla, your Jesus was a political insurgent. Here is a little of the evidence why...

The Arrest

Yeshua and his entourage were outmaneuvered. The Romans swooped on them in the garden of Gethsemane while Jewish residents slept. John claimed a cohort of soldiers was consigned to collar Jesus:

“Judas the traitor knew the place well, since Jesus had often met his disciples there, and he brought the cohort to this place together with a detachment of guards sent by the chief priests and Pharisees, all with lanterns and torches and weapons” (John 18:3 JB.)

Someone had betrayed Yeshua to the Romans. A cohort was six hundred Roman soldiers, one tenth of a legion. Pilate would not have sent this many men to arrest an agreeable, unarmed, peace-loving preacher who thought he was God. Yeshua was a big fish with an entourage of admirers, swimming in a city packed with potential patrons, so he needed to be decisively dealt with before things got out of hand.

Some of Yeshua’s disciples were with him at the time of his arrest. One or more of them was supposed to be on watch. It must have been intimidating to have that many soldiers tramping toward you in the dead of night, torchlight reflecting off their swords and armor, shining up a silhouette of trees in the distance. It was probably no contest. The Gospels make out that Jesus was surprised that force was used to capture him:

“And Jesus answered and said unto them, are ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and with staves to take me?” (Mark 14; 48, KJV)

This does not ring true, particularly when we read in John that

“Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus.” (John 18; 10, KJV.)

Most of Yeshua’s mates dashed off into the dark, leaving him to his fate. They had been taken by surprise, outplayed by more experienced, more professional opponents. Yeshua was trumped before he had made his master move. Yeshua was taken into custody, so was unable to issue instructions. His allies had let him down, and he must have known what was in store for him. Luke claimed Jesus was sweating blood (Luke 22; 44.) Luke was trying to tell how terrified Jesus was about his impending crucifixion.

Much is made in the Gospels about Peter’s remorse for disowning Jesus. There were others in the troop too terrified to put their lives on the line, and they must have felt just as guilty. The fact that Peter had to lie about his identity suggests that Roman soldiers were chasing anyone who was part of the gang of insurrectionists.

Yeshua would have felt abandoned not only by his friends but also by his God. His work and dreams had come to nothing, and he probably played the last card of a wretched man by begging his God for a miracle.

The Trial

Matthew claims Jesus was arrested because he claimed he was divine, but Yeshua did not fantasize that he was God. Jews believed in only one God, Yahweh. Yeshua would not have had any helpers if he had made a blasphemous claim that he was God.

Nor could the Romans have cared less about a peasant’s delusions of grandeur. The Romans never got involved in Jewish religious disputes unless they turned into a security issue. The high priest, the Sanhedrin, the Pharisees, Pilate, and his army all knew Yeshua had hoped to start a rebellion against Rome.

All the Gospel authors made out Jesus was given a trial. Jesus was taken before Pilate and the accusation made:

“We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ, a King.” (Luke 23:2 NKJ.)

Pilate asked Jesus if he was king of the Jews and Jesus answered,

“It is as you say it” (Luke 23:3 NKJ.)

This perfectly described the crux of the issue: Jesus was accused of undermining the government and the taxation system. Jesus effectively signed his own death warrant by admitting he thought of himself as the King of the Jews.

The Crucifixion

One of the authors of Matthew had Jews say,

“His blood be on us and our children” (Matt. 27:24–25, NJB.)

Jews publically cursed themselves for being Christ-killers, which is highly improbable.

The Jewish passersby allegedly mocked Jesus:

“The passersby jeered at him; they shook their heads and said ‘if you are God’s son, come down from the cross!’” (Matt. 27:39–40, NJB.)

Yet the Jewish crowd would not have been that callous to one of their own. They would have been appalled that Jesus was dying such a despicable death.

Moreover, if his fellow Jews had wanted to kill Jesus, he would have been stoned to death, which could only have happened if the Romans gave the Jews permission to do so.

The Gospel authors could not have Romans responsible for killing the Son of God, because the Catholic Church, who promoted the Gospels, became the Church of Rome. The solution was simple; they made the Romans look like unwilling participants in the proceedings, and they accused the anonymous Jewish rabble of wanting Jesus dead.

Crucifixion was an agonizing, demeaning, public death, one reserved for insurgents. It was used by Romans to intimidate anyone who might undermine their authority. The Roman soldiers nailed zealots up naked on a cross; it was part of the humiliation. The degrading death was designed to discourage other charismatic leaders from having their own dangerous dreams.

The sign or “titulus” (Latin for “inscription” or “label”) was the Roman way of exhibiting the explanation for the execution. It was written by Pilate, and read “King of the Jews,” a reflection of Jesus’ real crime.

Luke had a dying Jesus say

“Father, forgive them, they do not know what they are doing,” (Luke 23:34, NJB) referring to the Roman soldiers who had just scourged, mocked and nailed him naked to a cross. It is hard to imagine that Yeshua said this. He is more likely to have damned these soldiers with his dying breaths!

A Roman centurion supposedly said,

“In truth this was the Son of God” (Matt. 27:54, NJB.)

Yet Christianity, which claimed Jesus was the Son of God, had yet to be invented!

The two men Yeshua was crucified with were labeled as “lestai,” incorrectly translated in some Bibles as “robbers.” In fact “lestai” was a derogatory term for insurrectionists, who, by armed action, opposed Roman rule.

So the Roman soldiers crucified Jesus between two zealots, it is written that Jesus thought he was the King of the Jews, and yet the reader is expected to believe that Jesus was a pacifist preacher without any political ambitions!
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08-11-2015, 03:39 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(07-11-2015 08:02 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(07-11-2015 07:36 PM)Alla Wrote:  MARK:
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth: it is not peace I have come to bring, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter in law against her mother in law. A man’s enemies will be those of his own household. Anyone who prefers father or mother to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who prefers son or daughter to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who does not take his cross and follow in my footsteps is not worthy of me. Anyone who finds his life will lose it; anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it” (Matt. 10:34–39, NJB.)

ALLA:
Nope, I don't see Jesus is attacking anybody or telling to attack someone. I don't see He says not to love enemy, not to serve masters.

Jesus only says that He didn't come to bring peace to the Earth, but a sward. WOW! How did He know this? How did He know that non-Christian will hate Christian? How did He know that one Christian will hate another Christian because they disagree on a doctrine? How did He know that Muslims will hate Christians and kill them? How did He know that Christians will hate Muslims and kill them? How did he know that Christians will hate Jews?
Yes, truly He didn't bring peace.
But did He say that this is what He wants? Or He just prophesied what people will do to each other because of Him?
Does Mark know correct(true) answer? I doubt.

"But did He say that this is what He wants? Or He just prophesied what people will do to each other because of Him?
Does Mark know correct(true) answer? I doubt."


Actually I do think I know the answer to that question. Yet it takes about 10 pages to explain it, and I don't think you're genuinely interested in history, so unless you change my mind I won't answer.

PS

re Yes, truly He didn't bring peace.

I'm tentatively encouraged that you might be starting to think.
So, Jesus doesn't say in this quote to be violent or not to be subject unto masters.
Jesus was not hurting anybody according to the Bible.
Jesus didn't say not to go to the Gentiles because He hates them or because they are not worthy, or because they are bad. There was another reason. Of course, Mark has no idea what that reason was.
Jesus only prophesied what people will do in the future because of Him. He talked about future consciences of people evil choices - to fight because of Him and to persecute innocent because of Him. .
It was NOT a commandment - to fight because of Him.

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08-11-2015, 03:46 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(07-11-2015 11:17 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(07-11-2015 07:30 PM)Alla Wrote:  ALLA:
Jesus did not attack people according to the Bible.
MARK:
Alla, you ain't read your babble...Jeebus repeatedly threatened violence...
“And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force” (Matt. 11:12, KJV.)
ALLA:
I don't see it says that Jesus is attacking someone or that Jesus tells His disciples to attack someone.

MARK:
“Then he began to reproach the towns in which most of his miracles had been worked, because they refused to repent. ‘Alas for you Chorazin! Alas for you Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon they would have repented long ago in sack cloth and ashes. And still I tell you it will not go as hard on Judgment day on Tyre and Sidon as with you. And as for you Capernaum, did you want to be exalted as high as heaven? You shall be thrown down into hell. For if the miracles done in you had been done in Sodom, you would have been standing yet. And still I tell you that it will not go as hard with the land of Sodom on Judgment day as with you” (Matt. 11:20–24, NJB.)
ALLA: Nope, I don't see it says that Jesus is attacking someone or is telling His disciples to attack people.

MARK:
“If you have no sword, sell your cloak and buy one” (Luke 22:36, NJB.)
ALLA:
Yes, He says to His disciples who were free men and not slaves according to the Bible to defend themselves. Paul did not tell free men not to defend themselves.

MARK:
“Anyone who believes in the Son has eternal life, but anyone who refuses to believe in the Son will never see life: the anger of God stays on him” (John 3:33, NJB.)
ALLA:
Yes, anger of God. I don't see Jesus is attacking someone or tells His disciples to attack masters, to hate enemies.

MARK:
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16, NJB.)
ALLA:
the same, I don't see what you claim Jesus was doing.

MARK:
“But as for my enemies who did not want me for their king, bring them here and execute them in my presence” (Luke 19:27, NJB.)
ALLA:
already explained.

Alla, your Jesus was a political insurgent. Here is a little of the evidence why...

The Arrest

Yeshua and his entourage were outmaneuvered. The Romans swooped on them in the garden of Gethsemane while Jewish residents slept. John claimed a cohort of soldiers was consigned to collar Jesus:

“Judas the traitor knew the place well, since Jesus had often met his disciples there, and he brought the cohort to this place together with a detachment of guards sent by the chief priests and Pharisees, all with lanterns and torches and weapons” (John 18:3 JB.)

Someone had betrayed Yeshua to the Romans. A cohort was six hundred Roman soldiers, one tenth of a legion. Pilate would not have sent this many men to arrest an agreeable, unarmed, peace-loving preacher who thought he was God. Yeshua was a big fish with an entourage of admirers, swimming in a city packed with potential patrons, so he needed to be decisively dealt with before things got out of hand.

Some of Yeshua’s disciples were with him at the time of his arrest. One or more of them was supposed to be on watch. It must have been intimidating to have that many soldiers tramping toward you in the dead of night, torchlight reflecting off their swords and armor, shining up a silhouette of trees in the distance. It was probably no contest. The Gospels make out that Jesus was surprised that force was used to capture him:

“And Jesus answered and said unto them, are ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and with staves to take me?” (Mark 14; 48, KJV)

This does not ring true, particularly when we read in John that

“Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus.” (John 18; 10, KJV.)

Most of Yeshua’s mates dashed off into the dark, leaving him to his fate. They had been taken by surprise, outplayed by more experienced, more professional opponents. Yeshua was trumped before he had made his master move. Yeshua was taken into custody, so was unable to issue instructions. His allies had let him down, and he must have known what was in store for him. Luke claimed Jesus was sweating blood (Luke 22; 44.) Luke was trying to tell how terrified Jesus was about his impending crucifixion.

Much is made in the Gospels about Peter’s remorse for disowning Jesus. There were others in the troop too terrified to put their lives on the line, and they must have felt just as guilty. The fact that Peter had to lie about his identity suggests that Roman soldiers were chasing anyone who was part of the gang of insurrectionists.

Yeshua would have felt abandoned not only by his friends but also by his God. His work and dreams had come to nothing, and he probably played the last card of a wretched man by begging his God for a miracle.

The Trial

Matthew claims Jesus was arrested because he claimed he was divine, but Yeshua did not fantasize that he was God. Jews believed in only one God, Yahweh. Yeshua would not have had any helpers if he had made a blasphemous claim that he was God.

Nor could the Romans have cared less about a peasant’s delusions of grandeur. The Romans never got involved in Jewish religious disputes unless they turned into a security issue. The high priest, the Sanhedrin, the Pharisees, Pilate, and his army all knew Yeshua had hoped to start a rebellion against Rome.

All the Gospel authors made out Jesus was given a trial. Jesus was taken before Pilate and the accusation made:

“We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ, a King.” (Luke 23:2 NKJ.)

Pilate asked Jesus if he was king of the Jews and Jesus answered,

“It is as you say it” (Luke 23:3 NKJ.)

This perfectly described the crux of the issue: Jesus was accused of undermining the government and the taxation system. Jesus effectively signed his own death warrant by admitting he thought of himself as the King of the Jews.

The Crucifixion

One of the authors of Matthew had Jews say,

“His blood be on us and our children” (Matt. 27:24–25, NJB.)

Jews publically cursed themselves for being Christ-killers, which is highly improbable.

The Jewish passersby allegedly mocked Jesus:

“The passersby jeered at him; they shook their heads and said ‘if you are God’s son, come down from the cross!’” (Matt. 27:39–40, NJB.)

Yet the Jewish crowd would not have been that callous to one of their own. They would have been appalled that Jesus was dying such a despicable death.

Moreover, if his fellow Jews had wanted to kill Jesus, he would have been stoned to death, which could only have happened if the Romans gave the Jews permission to do so.

The Gospel authors could not have Romans responsible for killing the Son of God, because the Catholic Church, who promoted the Gospels, became the Church of Rome. The solution was simple; they made the Romans look like unwilling participants in the proceedings, and they accused the anonymous Jewish rabble of wanting Jesus dead.

Crucifixion was an agonizing, demeaning, public death, one reserved for insurgents. It was used by Romans to intimidate anyone who might undermine their authority. The Roman soldiers nailed zealots up naked on a cross; it was part of the humiliation. The degrading death was designed to discourage other charismatic leaders from having their own dangerous dreams.

The sign or “titulus” (Latin for “inscription” or “label”) was the Roman way of exhibiting the explanation for the execution. It was written by Pilate, and read “King of the Jews,” a reflection of Jesus’ real crime.

Luke had a dying Jesus say

“Father, forgive them, they do not know what they are doing,” (Luke 23:34, NJB) referring to the Roman soldiers who had just scourged, mocked and nailed him naked to a cross. It is hard to imagine that Yeshua said this. He is more likely to have damned these soldiers with his dying breaths!

A Roman centurion supposedly said,

“In truth this was the Son of God” (Matt. 27:54, NJB.)

Yet Christianity, which claimed Jesus was the Son of God, had yet to be invented!

The two men Yeshua was crucified with were labeled as “lestai,” incorrectly translated in some Bibles as “robbers.” In fact “lestai” was a derogatory term for insurrectionists, who, by armed action, opposed Roman rule.

So the Roman soldiers crucified Jesus between two zealots, it is written that Jesus thought he was the King of the Jews, and yet the reader is expected to believe that Jesus was a pacifist preacher without any political ambitions!

WOW! You are really intelligent man, Mark. Or whoever came up with these ideas.
Really interesting analysis. But I don't believe it is true.

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SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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