Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
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13-11-2015, 09:22 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(13-11-2015 09:14 AM)Alla Wrote:  Of course, Paul was preaching the Gospel. All the time.
But in verse 19 Paul says that he made himself servant to all.
To serve people is to help them in their needs and it is spiritual thing to serve others with love and compassion, without offending them.
When Paul was serving them this way, he was more close to God and he was bringing people more close to God by helping them.

Missionary work is not just talking(blah-blah-blah) about God. Missionary work is also (feed my sheep, feed my sheep, feed my sheep) - serving, helping, doing good to others - to Jew, to Gentile, to the weak, to the strong (without offending them).
P.S. Your interpretation of this words of Paul is very interesting, but there is one problem with it. Paul did not say: I tailor my theology.
This interpretation is correct and 100 % true - Paul was tailoring his service to others according to their needs

If you are right, then please give me few examples of Paul was tailoring his theology. I want to know specifics. It makes more sense to tailor your service according to people's needs, then to tailor theology. But you will give me some examples of Paul tailoring his theology.

"But you will give me some examples of Paul tailoring his theology."

Sure! Please read the following slowly and carefully digest what it means.

Paul the Salesman

I think Paul was a salesman with an ambitious agenda. He hoped to sell his interpretation of Judaism to the Roman world. I think he had a plan to undermine those dangerous messianic Nazarene beliefs that roused rebellion against Roman rule.

He wrote to various groups scattered throughout the Empire, and desperately insisted they believe only his theology. He was so obsessed with snaring converts that little else in his life mattered. In Romans 15:16, he wrote that Gentiles were an offering he would bring to God.

“That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.”

Most of the people he wrote to were Gentiles (pagans) associated with Jewish synagogues, (“God-fearing Gentiles,”) although he wrote to some Jews in the diaspora too. From Paul’s perspective, his patrons were in desperate need of direction and an authoritative, charismatic leader to look up to. He considered himself just the man. He knew how to win the hearts, minds, and souls of people, as he imagined himself as one of the few god fearers (i.e. Jews) who understood Gentile cultures.

Paul’s theology probably had a long and carefully thought out gestation. He knew that in order to appeal to his customers he needed a product very different to traditional Judaism, because Judaism required obedience to cumbersome dictates. The Jews believed one had to be circumcised, a painful and embarrassing procedure, not easy to sell to an adult man. They worshipped Yahweh, who is portrayed in Jewish scripture as a thunderous and violent pro-Jewish anti-gentile God. They could only eat kosher food, marry only fellow Jews, and had to stop work on the Sabbath. Jewish heritage and history were regarded as superior, and all Jews were expected to take part in the fasts and feasts celebrating the ancient epic of Israel. Many Jews thought they were one day going to be the masters of the world. Their messianic dreams were an obstacle to the peace Rome imposed on the people of the empire. Paul knew that gentiles found all this inconvenient, irksome and out of touch with reality, so he labeled these Jewish rules and beliefs as a type of “slavery.” He had to jettison the old rules, so he did, by reinventing Judaism so that it was more to the gentile world’s liking.

According to Paul, there was now no need for circumcision or to stop work on the Sabbath. The dietary kosher rules were out; bacon was on the breakfast menu. He downplayed the importance of the Jewish Temple, and replaced the Jews’ hope for a political messiah of their own with Christ, the spiritual savior of all mankind. The “kingdom of God,” according to Paul, became a place in heaven, not in Israel. He declared Yahweh was such a decent deity he’d sent his own precious son, the Christ, to earth. He alleged gentiles were descendants of Abraham too, and that the centuries-old Jewish Law was a “curse,” and a type of “slavery.” All that was now required was faith in his claims about Christ. Voilà! The Christ myth and Christian theology were born.

Paul was one of history’s first examples of an ambitious cult leader who, when the rules of the established religion were no longer convenient, simply invented new ones to suit himself. He replaced what he called the “old covenant” of the Jews with his entirely fabricated “new covenant.” He was trying to reinvent Judaism and I think doing his best to dampen down Jewish messianic dreams. He was bending over backwards to infiltrate Judaism with Gentiles and Gentile ideas. He had no idea he was creating an almost entirely new religion, yet that’s precisely what his writings helped do many years later.

To help realize this remodeling of belief, he undermined Yeshua’s family and disciples behind their backs. He was surprised and angry to find himself competing with them for people’s allegiance. They were treading on what he considered his turf. How dare they preach old-fashioned Jewish theology and disrupt his mission to set up communities of believers! Those annoying war-mongering Jews were full of subversive fantasies about a messiah, but God had revealed to him the real Christ, the up-to-date modern Christ! He, not them, was plugging the “good news.” He knew what the newly flexible, expansionist, less violent, less Judaic God expected in these modern, pro-Roman times. He was an educated, savvy, Greek-speaking sophisticate who knew a stack more about selling religion to the subjects of the Empire than the old fashioned anti-Roman bumpkins from the backwater of Galilee!
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13-11-2015, 09:31 PM (This post was last modified: 13-11-2015 09:48 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(12-11-2015 08:07 PM)Alla Wrote:  MARK FULTON:
Paul admitted he lied. Does the fact he lied make him a charlatan? It certainly doesn't help his cause.

ALLA:
What did he lie about specifically according to the Bible? Do you know, Mark Fulton?

Paul said that God had more abounded unto His glory through(in, by, because) of his lie.

I know a little bit about Paul's past from the Bible. He was not a very good person according to the Bible. He persecuted people for their believes. May be even killed them. Lied (according to Paul)
Paul changed after God appeared to him (according to the Bible). This is what Paul was talking about. People knew that Paul was a liar, bad person, persecuted Christians, but after God appeared, Paul changed completely. When people knew this they saw a miracle and power of God. They wanted to become Christians. They wanted to change like Paul did.
That is why through a sinner(liar) who changes for better God had more abounded unto His glory

Alla, you write
"I know a little bit about Paul's past from the Bible."

I know a lot about Paul, having read eight books on him, and hundreds of articles, and having read his letters many times, and having spent six or seven years studying early Christian, Jewish and Roman history. I have devoted nearly 3 chapters in my book to discussing Paul.

I dare say I probably know more about Paul then you and all the people in your church combined.

I suggest that just maybe you might learn something by understanding what I have written about Paul. I realise that may be a little confronting for you, and strange, yet I'm happy to answer questions.
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14-11-2015, 05:28 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
MARK FULTON:
I know a lot about Paul, having read eight books on him, and hundreds of articles, and having read his letters many times, and having spent six or seven years studying early Christian, Jewish and Roman history. I have devoted nearly 3 chapters in my book to discussing Paul.

I dare say I probably know more about Paul then you and all the people in your church combined.

ALLA:
Well, I am sure you are right that you know about Paul more than I know. I don't even argue about it.
But you are wrong about Paul's teaching of Christ's Gospel.

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14-11-2015, 05:34 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(14-11-2015 05:28 PM)Alla Wrote:  MARK FULTON:
I know a lot about Paul, having read eight books on him, and hundreds of articles, and having read his letters many times, and having spent six or seven years studying early Christian, Jewish and Roman history. I have devoted nearly 3 chapters in my book to discussing Paul.

I dare say I probably know more about Paul then you and all the people in your church combined.

ALLA:
Well, I am sure you are right that you know about Paul more than I know. I don't even argue about it.
But you are wrong about Paul's teaching of Christ's Gospel.

What gospel would that be, Alla? Please be specific in your reply.
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14-11-2015, 05:39 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(13-11-2015 06:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Paul was a liar.
Yes, according to the Bible Paul said that he lied and that we are all liars.
I asked you: what did Paul lie about according to Paul?
(13-11-2015 06:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  He lied by inventing a "new covenant"
Paul didn't say that he lied about this. Not according to the Bible. How can you support your claim?
(13-11-2015 06:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  He lied by inventing the idea that his Christ rose from the dead.
Paul didn't say that he lied about this. Not according to the Bible. How can you support your claim?
(13-11-2015 06:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  He lied that a Christ died for everyone's sins.
Paul didn't say that he lied about this. Not according to the Bible. How can you support your claim?
(13-11-2015 06:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  He lied that god talked to him.
Paul didn't say that he lied about this. Not according to the Bible. How can you support your claim?
(13-11-2015 06:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  He lied by claiming that he was an apostle.
Paul didn't say that he lied about this. Not according to the Bible. How can you support your claim?
(13-11-2015 06:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  He lied by claiming that Gentiles were god's chosen.
No, he didn't claim that they are chosen.
(13-11-2015 06:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  He lied by pretending to be a devout Jew
Paul didn't say that he lied about this. Not according to the Bible. How can you support your claim?

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14-11-2015, 05:40 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
what did Paul lie about? according to Paul, of course

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14-11-2015, 05:41 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(14-11-2015 05:34 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(14-11-2015 05:28 PM)Alla Wrote:  But you are wrong about Paul's teaching of Christ's Gospel.
What gospel would that be, Alla? Please be specific in your reply.
I was very specific: Gospel of Christ.

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14-11-2015, 05:48 PM (This post was last modified: 14-11-2015 08:36 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(14-11-2015 05:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(13-11-2015 06:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Paul was a liar.
Yes, according to the Bible Paul said that he lied and that we are all liars.
I asked you: what did Paul lie about according to Paul?
(13-11-2015 06:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  He lied by inventing a "new covenant"
Paul didn't say that he lied about this. Not according to the Bible. How can you support your claim?
(13-11-2015 06:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  He lied by inventing the idea that his Christ rose from the dead.
Paul didn't say that he lied about this. Not according to the Bible. How can you support your claim?
(13-11-2015 06:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  He lied that a Christ died for everyone's sins.
Paul didn't say that he lied about this. Not according to the Bible. How can you support your claim?
(13-11-2015 06:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  He lied that god talked to him.
Paul didn't say that he lied about this. Not according to the Bible. How can you support your claim?
(13-11-2015 06:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  He lied by claiming that he was an apostle.
Paul didn't say that he lied about this. Not according to the Bible. How can you support your claim?
(13-11-2015 06:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  He lied by claiming that Gentiles were god's chosen.
No, he didn't claim that they are chosen.
(13-11-2015 06:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  He lied by pretending to be a devout Jew
Paul didn't say that he lied about this. Not according to the Bible. How can you support your claim?

Go to the kitchen.

Make a cheese sandwich.

Does the bible say "Alla went to the kitchen and made a cheese sandwich."

No.

Does that mean Alla didn't make a cheese sandwich? No. She did. She still has the crumbs on her blouse and her breath smells of cheese.

Realty is more than the product of the bible.

Alla...employ your brain. Start thinking. You are allowed to do that.
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14-11-2015, 05:50 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul

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14-11-2015, 05:52 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(14-11-2015 05:41 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(14-11-2015 05:34 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  What gospel would that be, Alla? Please be specific in your reply.
I was very specific: Gospel of Christ.

That is not specific enough.

The four gospels (Mark, Matthew, Luke and John) hadn't been written when Paul wrote. There was no "New Testament." There was no Christian bible. So what, exactly, is this "Gospel of Christ" you refer to?
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