Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
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14-11-2015, 05:56 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(14-11-2015 05:48 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(14-11-2015 05:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  Yes, according to the Bible Paul said that he lied and that we are all liars.
I asked you: what did Paul lie about according to Paul?
Paul didn't say that he lied about this. Not according to the Bible. How can you support your claim?
Paul didn't say that he lied about this. Not according to the Bible. How can you support your claim?
Paul didn't say that he lied about this. Not according to the Bible. How can you support your claim?
Paul didn't say that he lied about this. Not according to the Bible. How can you support your claim?
Paul didn't say that he lied about this. Not according to the Bible. How can you support your claim?
No, he didn't claim that they are chosen.
Paul didn't say that he lied about this. Not according to the Bible. How can you support your claim?

Go to the kitchen.

Make a cheese sandwich.

Does the bible say "Alla went to the kitchen and made a cheese sandwich."

No.

Does that mean Alla didn't make a cheese sandwich?

Alla...employ your brain. Start thinking. You are allowed to do that.
So, you don't know what Paul lied about when he said that he lied.
I will tell you why you don't know this. You don't know this because Paul didn't tell what those lies were about.
He even didn't say how long ago he lied. May be his point was that he did many bad things(including lying) but God talked to Paul(bad guy) and Paul changed his heart and started to glorify God by doing God's work.

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14-11-2015, 06:00 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
Gospel of Christ is good news that Christ took sins of the world upon Himself and overcame death so all can live again.
Paul was teaching basic principles of the Gospel of Christ:
1) faith in Christ
2) repentance
3) baptism by water
4) baptism by fire(Holy Ghost)

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14-11-2015, 06:03 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
I see your post were you give examples of Paul's tailoring of his theology. I will read it and then I will respond.

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14-11-2015, 06:06 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(14-11-2015 06:00 PM)Alla Wrote:  Gospel of Christ is good news that Christ took sins of the world upon Himself and overcame death so all can live again.
Paul was teaching basic principles of the Gospel of Christ:
1) faith in Christ
2) repentance
3) baptism by water
4) baptism by fire(Holy Ghost)

I'll try again.

From where did Paul get "the Gospel of Christ?"
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14-11-2015, 06:07 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(14-11-2015 06:03 PM)Alla Wrote:  I see your post were you give examples of Paul's tailoring of his theology. I will read it and then I will respond.

It's nice to see you are actually reading what I write. I was beginning to wonder...
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14-11-2015, 06:11 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
I finished to read your post. Interesting ideas.
I don't see examples. Please show me examples in which I can see that Paul teaches the Gentiles one thing and the Jews - different thing.

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14-11-2015, 06:13 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(14-11-2015 06:07 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(14-11-2015 06:03 PM)Alla Wrote:  I see your post were you give examples of Paul's tailoring of his theology. I will read it and then I will respond.

It's nice to see you are actually reading what I write. I was beginning to wonder...

I have to admit that you are a good writer. You are very gifted man.

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14-11-2015, 06:14 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(14-11-2015 06:06 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I'll try again.
From where did Paul get "the Gospel of Christ?"
According to the Bible - from God(Christ).

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14-11-2015, 06:53 PM (This post was last modified: 14-11-2015 07:21 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(14-11-2015 06:11 PM)Alla Wrote:  I finished to read your post. Interesting ideas.
I don't see examples. Please show me examples in which I can see that Paul teaches the Gentiles one thing and the Jews - different thing.

Ok Alla, compare A and B in which Paul is undeniably ambivalent about "the Law"


A) Paul claimed:

“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” (Gal. 2;16, KJV,) and

“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law” (Gal. 3:13, KJV,) and

“Before faith came, we were allowed no freedom by the Law; we were being looked after till faith was revealed. The law was to be our guardian until the Christ came and we could be justified by faith. Now that that time has come we are no longer under that guardian, and you are, all of you, sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. All baptized in Christ, you have all clothed yourself in Christ, and there are no more distinctions between Jew and Greek, slave and free, male and female, but all of you are one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal. 3:23–28, NJB.)

"Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?" (Gal 3:2)

"Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?" (Gal 3:5)

"For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse. For it is written, ‘Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them’" (Gal 3:10).

B) On the other hand, it's obvious that Paul himself believed in keeping the Law:

Romans 7:25 - I thank Yahweh--through Yahushua the Messiah our Master! So then, with the mind I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, but with the flesh the Law of sin.

Paul says that the doers of the Law will be justified and those who break it will be judged.

Romans 2:12 - For as many as have sinned without Law will also perish without Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law will be judged by the Law 13 (for not the hearers of the Law [are] just in the sight of Yahweh, but the doers of the Law will be justified;

Paul says that we know His will and approve the things that are excellent when instructed out of the Law.

Romans 2:17 - Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the Law, and make your boast in Yahweh, 18 and know [His] will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the Law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the Law.

Here he says that when we break the Law, we dishonor Yahweh and blaspheme His name.

Romans 2:21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, "Do not commit adultery," do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the Law, do you dishonor Yahweh through breaking the Law? 24 For "the name of Yahweh is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written.

Romans 7:7 - What shall we say then? [Is] the Law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the Law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the Law had said, "You shall not covet."

Here is a key scripture proving that Paul believed that thru faith we do not make the Law void, but rather we establish the Law (To cause or make to stand, #2476).

Romans 3:31 - Do we then make void the Law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Here is another key scripture like the one above proving that Paul did not believe that once we are under grace, that we can continue to sin (break the Law):

Romans 6:15 - What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin [leading] to death, or of obedience [leading] to righteousness?

Here Paul is equating "the Law" with "the commandment" and stating his opinion of them:

Romans 7:12 - Therefore the Law [is] holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Here is an unpopular statement of Paul's. Many like to believe that the Law is of the flesh. Not true! It's spiritual:

Romans 7:14 - For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Paul delights in the Law of Yahweh

Romans 7:22 - For I delight in the Law of Yahweh according to the inward man
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14-11-2015, 07:01 PM (This post was last modified: 14-11-2015 07:05 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(14-11-2015 06:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(14-11-2015 06:06 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I'll try again.
From where did Paul get "the Gospel of Christ?"
According to the Bible - from God(Christ).

Well...yes...sort of. Paul thought God revealed things to him. What Paul probably meant by that was that he thought that he had a particular talent interpreting Jewish scripture...


The Source of Paul’s Theology

One might assume that Paul had a legitimate and verifiable source for his hypotheses, but I say he didn’t.

I’ve imagined going back in time to ask him what it was. He got anxious when his credibility was questioned, so his answer would be intense. He frequently wrote at length about himself, so he’d probably tell me how hard he works, how genuine he is, how he’s suffered for his beliefs, and how sure he is that what he preaches is the truth. The actual answer to the question would be a long time arriving.

Paul wrote,

“The fact is, brothers, and I want you to realize this, the Good News I preached is not a human message that I was given by men, it is something I learned only through a revelation of Jesus Christ. You must have heard of my career as a practicing Jew, how merciless I was in persecuting the Church of God, how much damage I did to it, how I stood out among other Jews of my generation, and how enthusiastic I was for the traditions of my ancestors. Then God, who had specifically chosen me while I was still in my mother's womb, called me through his grace and chose to reveal his son in me, so that I may preach the Good News about him to the pagans” (Gal. 1:11–24, NJB.)

This is from one of his best-known letters. He specifically stated that the message he preached came not from human sources, but from God, “through a revelation of Jesus Christ.”

This was not the only occasion he said God inspired him;

“I, Paul, appointed by God to be an apostle” (1 Cor. 1:1, NJB) and

“But our sufficiency is from God” (2 Cor. 3:5 NKJB.)

What he meant was that he thought he had a God given talent enabling him to interpret scripture. That was, after all, the job description for a Pharisee. This doesn’t trigger confidence in his credibility.

Paul took things one step further than his more traditional colleagues when interpreting scripture. He thought he alone had a divine mandate from God. Consider the opening lines of his letter to the Romans:

“From Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus who has been called to be an apostle, and specially chosen to preach the Good News that God promised long ago through his prophets in the scriptures” (Rom. 1:1–3, NJB.)

Paul promoted himself as a uniquely special interpreter of scripture, and he bad-mouthed anyone who happened to disagree with him (see 1 Corinthians 15:1–3, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...sion=KJV).

Yet objective scholars and traditional Jews agree that Paul’s “good news” isn’t in scripture. (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articl...f-tarsus). Moreover, Paul often changed the meaning of scripture to suit himself. For example, he wrote,

“so that all beings in the heavens, on earth and in the underworld, should bend the knee at the name of Jesus and that every tongue should acclaim Jesus Christ as Lord to the glory of the Father” (Phil. 2:10–11, NJB.)

The source of this was

“Before me every knee shall bend, by me every tongue shall swear, saying ‘From Yahweh alone come victory and strength.’” (Isa. 45:23–24, NJB.)

Paul replaced Yahweh with Jesus Christ, to fit with his own manufactured theology.

One of Paul’s main themes was that gentiles could be God’s special people too. He wrote,

“Well, we are those people; whether we were Jews or pagans we are the ones he has called. That is exactly what God says in Hosea: ‘I shall say to a people that was not mine, ‘you are my people,’ and to a nation I never loved ‘I love you’” (Rom. 9:24, NJB.)

However a reading of chapters one and two of Hosea (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=KJV ) reveals that “God” wasn’t referring to gentiles, but Jews whom he was accepting back under his wing after a misdemeanor. Paul changed the meaning of scripture to sell his own story to Gentiles living in Rome.

Just why “God” would need to tell everything to Paul via “a revelation of Jesus Christ,” when Jesus had had over 30 years to do it himself, is never adequately explained by anyone in today’s Christian circles.

Mithras, the pagan god of an ancient eastern cult, shared many features with Paul’s Christ, and Tarsus, Paul’s home town, was a major center of Mithraic belief.

I think Paul manufactured his Christ to counter the dreams of the Nazarenes, who were hoping for a political messiah.

Paul’s theology was the product of a complex mishmash of concepts from other cults, over imaginative interpretations of Jewish scripture, his political ambitions, and his own imagination. He was clearly a master confabulator, inventing fictions and interpretations to support his own views. I don’t think any of his possible sources add any credibility to his theology. He was writing for people who weren’t intellectuals, and he wouldn’t have known his letters would one day be compared with each other and critically examined.

Paul must have known he was fabricating, but didn’t let that niggle at his conscience. He was on a mission to snare converts, and the end justified the means. I suspect the more he thought and talked about the divinity of Christ, his sacrificial death, and his resurrection, the more real and useful these ideas became to him. I think it didn’t bother him, or he mightn’t have been aware, that his ideas were fundamentally odd. He wouldn’t have wasted time questioning his own themes. He was too busy for that, too obsessed with winning people over.

Paul presumed his readers would believe that God inspired him, yet there’s clearly no objective reason to do so. He was preaching and writing to people who, judged by today’s standards, were naïve, unsophisticated, isolated, and unread. Most of them would have had Paul’s letters read to them. A well-written letter must have been impressive. When he appeared in person he must have been a self-righteous and confident teacher, which may have been enough to give him some credibility.
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