Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
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14-11-2015, 07:12 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(14-11-2015 06:13 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(14-11-2015 06:07 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  It's nice to see you are actually reading what I write. I was beginning to wonder...

I have to admit that you are a good writer. You are very gifted man.

Nice of you to say, but I've been told often enough that I'm not a good writer, so I have no delusions about that Big Grin

Also...I'm confident that I'm "right" about a lot of this stuff. That's a worry. Be very careful of anyone who claims this Big Grin
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14-11-2015, 08:41 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(14-11-2015 05:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(14-11-2015 05:48 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Go to the kitchen.

Make a cheese sandwich.

Does the bible say "Alla went to the kitchen and made a cheese sandwich."

No.

Does that mean Alla didn't make a cheese sandwich?

Alla...employ your brain. Start thinking. You are allowed to do that.
So, you don't know what Paul lied about when he said that he lied.
I will tell you why you don't know this. You don't know this because Paul didn't tell what those lies were about.
He even didn't say how long ago he lied. May be his point was that he did many bad things(including lying) but God talked to Paul(bad guy) and Paul changed his heart and started to glorify God by doing God's work.

So, you don't know what Paul lied about when he said that he lied.

Ah, yes I do. I'll have to repeat myself though.
He lied by inventing a "new covenant"
He lied by inventing the idea that his Christ rose from the dead.
He lied that a Christ died for everyone's sins.
He lied that god talked to him.
He lied by claiming that he was an apostle.
He lied by claiming that Gentiles were god's chosen.
He lied by pretending to be a devout Jew.
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15-11-2015, 06:56 PM (This post was last modified: 15-11-2015 07:05 PM by Alla.)
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
Mark, this is my response to your post #159 where you show how in your personal opinion Paul is tailoring his theology.
I don't want you to agree with me, I don't want you to believe me, I only wish you to understand what I am going to say.
I hope my English will be sufficient.

Romans 2:12 - For as many as have sinned without Law will also perish without Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law will be judged by the Law 13 (for not the hearers of the Law [are] just in the sight of Yahweh, but the doers of the Law will be justified;
So, what does Paul say here? I will break in parts:
1) people who were without the law/ who never knew the Law,will not be judged by the Law or according to the Law.
2)Those who knew the Law will be judged according to the law.
3)Paul said that doers of the Law(those who try to be obedient) will be justified. Note: Paul didn't say here that doers of the Law will be justified by the Law.
So, Paul is teaching that it is important to obey God's Law. Those who obey the Law will be justified. By what are they going to be justified? In this verse Paul didn't explain.
But in other parts of the scripture Paul is teaching by what people can be justified: by faith in Christ.

Why did Paul say to some about importance of being obedient to God's Law and that the doers can be justified but doesn't stress on faith in Christ?
Why did Paul say to some about importance of having faith in Christ and that they can not be justified by Law of God?

The answer: some of Paul's audience had faith in Christ but they didn't know or didn't understand about importance of obedience of God's Law. To those people Paul was stressing that faith is not enough. To be a hearer is not enough. They must be doers of the Law.
some of Paul's audience knew about Law of God, believed in importance of obedience of the Law but they were lack faith in Christ. They believed that they can be justified by the Law. To them Paul was stressing that obedience of the Law is not enough. They can not be justified by the Law. They need faith in Christ.
Paul was teaching that doers of the Law can be justified. So, obedience is very important. But by what are doers justified? By faith in Christ. Those "some" didn't understand it, didn't believe.
SUMMERY: Paul was teaching
1)that those who have faith in Christ and obey the Law(doers of the Law) are justified by faith in Christ.
2)Those who believe in Christ and just hearers of the Law are not justified by faith in Christ
3)Those who obey the Law/doers of the Law but don't have in Christ can not be justified. Because nobody is justified by Law.

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15-11-2015, 07:07 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(14-11-2015 07:12 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(14-11-2015 06:13 PM)Alla Wrote:  I have to admit that you are a good writer. You are very gifted man.

Nice of you to say, but I've been told often enough that I'm not a good writer, so I have no delusions about that Big Grin
I disagree with them.
(14-11-2015 07:12 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Also...I'm confident that I'm "right" about a lot of this stuff. That's a worry. Be very careful of anyone who claims this Big Grin
Smile

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15-11-2015, 08:44 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(15-11-2015 06:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  Mark, this is my response to your post #159 where you show how in your personal opinion Paul is tailoring his theology.
I don't want you to agree with me, I don't want you to believe me, I only wish you to understand what I am going to say.
I hope my English will be sufficient.

Romans 2:12 - For as many as have sinned without Law will also perish without Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law will be judged by the Law 13 (for not the hearers of the Law [are] just in the sight of Yahweh, but the doers of the Law will be justified;
So, what does Paul say here? I will break in parts:
1) people who were without the law/ who never knew the Law,will not be judged by the Law or according to the Law.
2)Those who knew the Law will be judged according to the law.
3)Paul said that doers of the Law(those who try to be obedient) will be justified. Note: Paul didn't say here that doers of the Law will be justified by the Law.
So, Paul is teaching that it is important to obey God's Law. Those who obey the Law will be justified. By what are they going to be justified? In this verse Paul didn't explain.
But in other parts of the scripture Paul is teaching by what people can be justified: by faith in Christ.

Why did Paul say to some about importance of being obedient to God's Law and that the doers can be justified but doesn't stress on faith in Christ?
Why did Paul say to some about importance of having faith in Christ and that they can not be justified by Law of God?

The answer: some of Paul's audience had faith in Christ but they didn't know or didn't understand about importance of obedience of God's Law. To those people Paul was stressing that faith is not enough. To be a hearer is not enough. They must be doers of the Law.
some of Paul's audience knew about Law of God, believed in importance of obedience of the Law but they were lack faith in Christ. They believed that they can be justified by the Law. To them Paul was stressing that obedience of the Law is not enough. They can not be justified by the Law. They need faith in Christ.
Paul was teaching that doers of the Law can be justified. So, obedience is very important. But by what are doers justified? By faith in Christ. Those "some" didn't understand it, didn't believe.
SUMMERY: Paul was teaching
1)that those who have faith in Christ and obey the Law(doers of the Law) are justified by faith in Christ.
2)Those who believe in Christ and just hearers of the Law are not justified by faith in Christ
3)Those who obey the Law/doers of the Law but don't have in Christ can not be justified. Because nobody is justified by Law.

What a muddle.

I think you got some of it, but not all, right.

I presume you think you are in group 1? Had any prawns lately? Done the laundry on a Saturday?
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15-11-2015, 09:03 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
I believe that Heavenly Father wants me to be in group one. To be in group one doesn't mean to be perfect but it means to work towards perfection.
I can't obey all laws of God, it is not possible, that is why I can't be justified by Law. But when I show to my Heavenly Father that I do my best(all I can) I will be justified(but not by Law).
All my failings will be covered by atonement if I have faith, repent of my failings, endure to the end(obey the Law to the best of my ability).
We didn't come here to be perfect but we came here to learn to become perfect. We fail once in a while.
So, yes, sometimes I do my laundry on Sunday. It is wrong, but I improve step by step. The goal is to improve, to progress and not to be worse today than I was yesterday.

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15-11-2015, 10:05 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(15-11-2015 09:03 PM)Alla Wrote:  I believe that Heavenly Father wants me to be in group one. To be in group one doesn't mean to be perfect but it means to work towards perfection.
I can't obey all laws of God, it is not possible, that is why I can't be justified by Law. But when I show to my Heavenly Father that I do my best(all I can) I will be justified(but not by Law).
All my failings will be covered by atonement if I have faith, repent of my failings, endure to the end(obey the Law to the best of my ability).
We didn't come here to be perfect but we came here to learn to become perfect. We fail once in a while.
So, yes, sometimes I do my laundry on Sunday. It is wrong, but I improve step by step. The goal is to improve, to progress and not to be worse today than I was yesterday.

No problem doing laundry on a Sunday. But if you wash dem clothes on a Saturday, the shit sure hits the fan in heaven.

And yes, keep mulling over all your failings and how you need to improve. Churches like people doing that. And yes, you'll get a ticket to an eternal theme park in the sky if you have faith in Christ. How do I know? Paul told me...it's in the babble...so it must be true. Facepalm
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16-11-2015, 03:28 AM (This post was last modified: 16-11-2015 03:46 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(15-11-2015 09:03 PM)Alla Wrote:  I believe that Heavenly Father wants me to be in group one. To be in group one doesn't mean to be perfect but it means to work towards perfection.
I can't obey all laws of God, it is not possible, that is why I can't be justified by Law. But when I show to my Heavenly Father that I do my best(all I can) I will be justified(but not by Law).
All my failings will be covered by atonement if I have faith, repent of my failings, endure to the end(obey the Law to the best of my ability).
We didn't come here to be perfect but we came here to learn to become perfect. We fail once in a while.
So, yes, sometimes I do my laundry on Sunday. It is wrong, but I improve step by step. The goal is to improve, to progress and not to be worse today than I was yesterday.

"I believe that Heavenly Father wants me to be in group one."

Ah ha. Consider

So... the creator of the entire universe.... "wants" you, one of 7 billion humans in an obscure corner of an infinitesimally large said universe, to follow the thousands of rules laid down by some culture-poor goat fuckers in the middle east over 2000 years ago...Huh
AND...have "faith" in the idea "he" sent himself to die to save you from himself...Huh
AND... believe that when you die you can rule your own planet in another corner of the universe? Huh

Why, pray tell, are you so credulous that you can imagine that a "God" could possibly merge the ideas from

- the ramblings of ancient Jewish priests intent on controlling the people,
- with a Roman government public servant employed to control the Jews
- with a 19th century American charlatan focused on having a personal harem and making a fortune by controlling the simple folk?

Has it not occurred to you that

- said hypothetical god obviously does not exist, Gasp
- and even if "he" did, "he" wouldn't give a fuck about
- you Blink
- or the twisted, bizarre ramblings of any of these random, self obsessed people? Sadcryface
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16-11-2015, 07:49 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
MARK FULTON:
So... the creator of the entire universe.... "wants" you, one of 7 billion humans in an obscure corner of an infinitesimally large said universe, to follow the thousands of rules laid down by some culture-poor goat fuckers in the middle east over 2000 years ago...Huh

ALLA:
No, He doesn't want me to follow the thousands of rules. I thought I explained it to you. It is not possible to follow all rules or thousands of rules. He wants me and 7 billion people to learn how to be good or better people.

MARK FULTON:
AND...have "faith" in the idea "he" sent himself to die to save you from himself...Huh
ALLA:
this is false idea and that is why I don't believe in it. God didn't send Himself to die to save me from Himself

MARK FULTON:
AND... believe that when you die you can rule your own planet in another corner of the universe?
ALLA:
Yes , I can believe this but it is not required for salvation.

MARK FULTON:
Has it not occurred to you that

- said hypothetical god obviously does not exist, Gasp
- and even if "he" did, "he" wouldn't give a fuck about
- you Blink
- or the twisted, bizarre ramblings of any of these random, self obsessed people? Sadcryface

ALLA:
Let's say it occurs to me once in while. So? As long as I am improving in my personal progress and live by faith I am moving in right direction. Personal progress is always good thing.
It is OK to have doubts sometimes. That is why we are here - to improve ourselves, to have personal progress despite our doubts. We are not suppose to have perfect knowledge. When there is perfect knowledge there is no room for growing.

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17-11-2015, 01:31 AM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(15-11-2015 09:03 PM)Alla Wrote:  I believe that Heavenly Father wants me to be in group one. To be in group one doesn't mean to be perfect but it means to work towards perfection.
I can't obey all laws of God, it is not possible, that is why I can't be justified by Law. But when I show to my Heavenly Father that I do my best(all I can) I will be justified(but not by Law).
All my failings will be covered by atonement if I have faith, repent of my failings, endure to the end(obey the Law to the best of my ability).
We didn't come here to be perfect but we came here to learn to become perfect. We fail once in a while.
So, yes, sometimes I do my laundry on Sunday. It is wrong, but I improve step by step. The goal is to improve, to progress and not to be worse today than I was yesterday.

Allla , you write

I believe that Heavenly Father wants me to be in group one.

In your own words, group 1 is...

1)that those who have faith in Christ and obey the Law(doers of the Law) are justified by faith in Christ.

So, I'll make the point again...you don't know that "the law" is. You break "the law" every day.Big Grin
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