Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
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01-11-2015, 07:15 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(01-11-2015 07:06 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 06:37 PM)Alla Wrote:  Could you please provide one quote?

I can do better than that...

“And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.” (1 Corinthians 9:20-23, KJV)

“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” (Gal. 2; 16, KJV)

“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law” (Gal. 3:13, KJV)

“Before faith came, we were allowed no freedom by the Law; we were being looked after till faith was revealed. The law was to be our guardian until the Christ came and we could be justified by faith. Now that that time has come we are no longer under that guardian, and you are, all of you, sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. All baptized in Christ, you have all clothed yourself in Christ, and there are no more distinctions between Jew and Greek, slave and free, male and female, but all of you are one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal. 3:23–28, NJB.)

“For you, my brothers, have been like the churches of God in Christ Jesus which are in Judaea, in suffering the same treatment from your own countrymen as they have suffered from the Jews, the people who put the Lord Jesus to death, and the prophets too. And now they have been persecuting us, and acting in a way that cannot please God and makes them the enemies of the whole human race, because they are hindering us from preaching to the pagans and trying to save them” (1 Thess. 2:14–16 JB.)
Mark, I have to go back to real world now. I will ask more questions tomorrow. Have a great night, my brave friend. Smile

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02-11-2015, 06:34 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(01-11-2015 07:06 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” (Gal. 2; 16, KJV)
Paul said we can not be justified by the law(works). He didn't say we don't have to obey the law.
God gave laws. God requires to obey every law. I can be justified by laws only if I obey laws. But as soon as I broke at least one law I can not be justified any more.
This is what Paul was saying. He didn't say: we don't need laws any more.
Adam broke only one law and he couldn't be justified, he had to leave presence of God. It calls spiritual death. So as God said Adam died the same day he partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
(01-11-2015 07:06 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law”[/i] (Gal. 3:13, KJV)
Yes, because I break God's laws every day. I can not be justified by those laws.
I have to obey every law of God but I don't. Nobody can. Nobody is justified by law except Jesus Christ. He never broke God's laws that is why He was justified by law.
Bottom line: Paul never said: we don't need to obey laws any more, but he said we can not be justified by laws because of one simple reason: we break God's laws almost every day if not every day. We are not perfect we are only learning how to be perfect. we make mistakes, thousands of mistakes.
(01-11-2015 07:06 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “Before faith came, we were allowed no freedom by the Law; we were being looked after till faith was revealed. The law was to be our guardian until the Christ came and we could be justified by faith. Now that that time has come we are no longer under that guardian, and you are, all of you, sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. All baptized in Christ, you have all clothed yourself in Christ, and there are no more distinctions between Jew and Greek, slave and free, male and female, but all of you are one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal. 3:23–28, NJB.)
Paul was teaching that before the Atonement we had only law. ALL OF US break God's laws. So, we can not be justified by law as Adam could not be justified by law, he had to die. Paul says that if Christ didn't atone for us all those people who were under the law would perish forever. As a matter of fact ALL people would perish forever because all people break God's laws all the time. ALL PEOPLE.
Atonement provides forgiveness and repentance. Without the Atonement or blood of Christ ALL PEOPLE deserve death/hell/separation from God. We can not be justified by law, it means that our repentance is not going to help us.

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03-11-2015, 02:50 AM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2015 03:13 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(02-11-2015 06:34 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 07:06 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” (Gal. 2; 16, KJV)
Paul said we can not be justified by the law(works). He didn't say we don't have to obey the law.
God gave laws. God requires to obey every law. I can be justified by laws only if I obey laws. But as soon as I broke at least one law I can not be justified any more.
This is what Paul was saying. He didn't say: we don't need laws any more.
Adam broke only one law and he couldn't be justified, he had to leave presence of God. It calls spiritual death. So as God said Adam died the same day he partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
(01-11-2015 07:06 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law”[/i] (Gal. 3:13, KJV)
Yes, because I break God's laws every day. I can not be justified by those laws.
I have to obey every law of God but I don't. Nobody can. Nobody is justified by law except Jesus Christ. He never broke God's laws that is why He was justified by law.
Bottom line: Paul never said: we don't need to obey laws any more, but he said we can not be justified by laws because of one simple reason: we break God's laws almost every day if not every day. We are not perfect we are only learning how to be perfect. we make mistakes, thousands of mistakes.
(01-11-2015 07:06 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “Before faith came, we were allowed no freedom by the Law; we were being looked after till faith was revealed. The law was to be our guardian until the Christ came and we could be justified by faith. Now that that time has come we are no longer under that guardian, and you are, all of you, sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. All baptized in Christ, you have all clothed yourself in Christ, and there are no more distinctions between Jew and Greek, slave and free, male and female, but all of you are one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal. 3:23–28, NJB.)
Paul was teaching that before the Atonement we had only law. ALL OF US break God's laws. So, we can not be justified by law as Adam could not be justified by law, he had to die. Paul says that if Christ didn't atone for us all those people who were under the law would perish forever. As a matter of fact ALL people would perish forever because all people break God's laws all the time. ALL PEOPLE.
Atonement provides forgiveness and repentance. Without the Atonement or blood of Christ ALL PEOPLE deserve death/hell/separation from God. We can not be justified by law, it means that our repentance is not going to help us.

Hi Alla. I notice you've moved on from asking questions to telling me how things are.

I suspect you are a sweet person, yet very brainwashed and very ignorant. I don't mean that to be derogatory. You just need a big dose of reality. I can help you.

"Paul said we can not be justified by the law(works). He didn't say we don't have to obey the law."

Ah..yes he did. Reread what Paul wrote. I don't think you understand what "the law" was. Use google.

"God gave laws."

No. God doesn't exist. "He" is a fictional entity invented by priests to control people like you. Read that again.

"I can be justified by laws only if I obey laws."

You don't have to be "justified" by anyone or anything. Just try to be nice to yourself and others and all will be fine.

But as soon as I broke at least one law I can not be justified any more.

Cool your jets, princess. You're not that important. Neither am I.

Adam broke only one law

"Adam" didn't exist. He is a character in a comic book. Read that again.

"he had to leave presence of God."

"God" is another fictional character in the same comic book.

"God requires to obey every law."

No. Priests are getting you to obey them. You should recognise their weak attempts at that as pathetic.
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03-11-2015, 03:03 AM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(02-11-2015 06:34 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 07:06 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” (Gal. 2; 16, KJV)
Paul said we can not be justified by the law(works). He didn't say we don't have to obey the law.
God gave laws. God requires to obey every law. I can be justified by laws only if I obey laws. But as soon as I broke at least one law I can not be justified any more.
This is what Paul was saying. He didn't say: we don't need laws any more.
Adam broke only one law and he couldn't be justified, he had to leave presence of God. It calls spiritual death. So as God said Adam died the same day he partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
(01-11-2015 07:06 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law”[/i] (Gal. 3:13, KJV)
Yes, because I break God's laws every day. I can not be justified by those laws.
I have to obey every law of God but I don't. Nobody can. Nobody is justified by law except Jesus Christ. He never broke God's laws that is why He was justified by law.
Bottom line: Paul never said: we don't need to obey laws any more, but he said we can not be justified by laws because of one simple reason: we break God's laws almost every day if not every day. We are not perfect we are only learning how to be perfect. we make mistakes, thousands of mistakes.
(01-11-2015 07:06 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “Before faith came, we were allowed no freedom by the Law; we were being looked after till faith was revealed. The law was to be our guardian until the Christ came and we could be justified by faith. Now that that time has come we are no longer under that guardian, and you are, all of you, sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. All baptized in Christ, you have all clothed yourself in Christ, and there are no more distinctions between Jew and Greek, slave and free, male and female, but all of you are one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal. 3:23–28, NJB.)
Paul was teaching that before the Atonement we had only law. ALL OF US break God's laws. So, we can not be justified by law as Adam could not be justified by law, he had to die. Paul says that if Christ didn't atone for us all those people who were under the law would perish forever. As a matter of fact ALL people would perish forever because all people break God's laws all the time. ALL PEOPLE.
Atonement provides forgiveness and repentance. Without the Atonement or blood of Christ ALL PEOPLE deserve death/hell/separation from God. We can not be justified by law, it means that our repentance is not going to help us.

I have to obey every law of God but I don't. Nobody can. Nobody is justified by law except Jesus Christ. He never broke God's laws that is why He was justified by law.

Guess what. "Jesus Christ" is just another fictional comic book character invented to control you. Forget "the law", forget "Paul," forget "God."

People have been arguing and killing eachother over this nonsense for centuries now.

Just be you. Alla. That will make you happy.
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03-11-2015, 03:06 AM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(02-11-2015 06:34 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(01-11-2015 07:06 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” (Gal. 2; 16, KJV)
Paul said we can not be justified by the law(works). He didn't say we don't have to obey the law.
God gave laws. God requires to obey every law. I can be justified by laws only if I obey laws. But as soon as I broke at least one law I can not be justified any more.
This is what Paul was saying. He didn't say: we don't need laws any more.
Adam broke only one law and he couldn't be justified, he had to leave presence of God. It calls spiritual death. So as God said Adam died the same day he partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
(01-11-2015 07:06 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law”[/i] (Gal. 3:13, KJV)
Yes, because I break God's laws every day. I can not be justified by those laws.
I have to obey every law of God but I don't. Nobody can. Nobody is justified by law except Jesus Christ. He never broke God's laws that is why He was justified by law.
Bottom line: Paul never said: we don't need to obey laws any more, but he said we can not be justified by laws because of one simple reason: we break God's laws almost every day if not every day. We are not perfect we are only learning how to be perfect. we make mistakes, thousands of mistakes.
(01-11-2015 07:06 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “Before faith came, we were allowed no freedom by the Law; we were being looked after till faith was revealed. The law was to be our guardian until the Christ came and we could be justified by faith. Now that that time has come we are no longer under that guardian, and you are, all of you, sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. All baptized in Christ, you have all clothed yourself in Christ, and there are no more distinctions between Jew and Greek, slave and free, male and female, but all of you are one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal. 3:23–28, NJB.)
Paul was teaching that before the Atonement we had only law. ALL OF US break God's laws. So, we can not be justified by law as Adam could not be justified by law, he had to die. Paul says that if Christ didn't atone for us all those people who were under the law would perish forever. As a matter of fact ALL people would perish forever because all people break God's laws all the time. ALL PEOPLE.

Atonement provides forgiveness and repentance. Without the Atonement or blood of Christ ALL PEOPLE deserve death/hell/separation from God. We can not be justified by law, it means that our repentance is not going to help us.

Paul says that if Christ didn't atone for us all those people who were under the law would perish forever. As a matter of fact ALL people would perish forever because all people break God's laws all the time. ALL PEOPLE.
Atonement provides forgiveness and repentance.


Noise. Just breathe. Slowly. The air is real.
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03-11-2015, 03:28 PM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2015 03:31 PM by Alla.)
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
Mark, You have "what Paul actually said" comprehension problem.
That's all I wanted to tell you. Smile

Bottom line:
It is written that Paul said that nobody can be justified by the law. Mark reads this and then for some reason says that Paul said not to obey the law.
I don't get it. Consider

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03-11-2015, 03:39 PM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2015 05:47 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(03-11-2015 03:28 PM)Alla Wrote:  Mark, You have "what Paul actually said" comprehension problem.
That's all I wanted to tell you. Smile

Bottom line:
It is written that Paul said that nobody can be justified by the law. Mark reads this and then for some reason says that Paul said not to obey the law.
I don't get it. Consider

Alla, read this...

Paul the Salesman

It can be argued that Paul was a salesman with an ambitious agenda. Paul hoped to sell his interpretation of Judaism to the Roman world. He had a plan to undermine those dangerous messianic Nazarene beliefs that roused rebellion against Roman rule.

Paul wrote to various groups scattered throughout the Empire, and pleaded they believe only his theology. Judging by the content of his letters, Paul was so obsessed with snaring converts that little else in his life mattered. In Romans 15:16, he wrote that Gentiles were an offering he would bring to God.

“...that I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.”

Most of the people Paul wrote to were Gentiles (pagans) associated with Jewish synagogues, (“God-fearing Gentiles”) although he wrote to some Jews in the Diaspora too. From Paul’s perspective, his patrons were in desperate need of direction and an authoritative, charismatic leader to look up to. He considered himself just the man. Paul thought he knew how to win the hearts, minds, and souls of people, as he probably imagined himself as one of the few God fearers (i.e. Jews) who understood Gentile cultures.

“And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.” (1 Corinthians 9:20-23, KJV)

Paul’s theology probably had a long and carefully thought out gestation. Paul knew that to appeal to his customers he needed a product very different to traditional Judaism. Traditional Judaism required obedience to cumbersome dictates, and was too anti-Roman. The Jews believed men had to be circumcised, a painful and embarrassing procedure, not easy to sell to an adult man. The Jews worshipped Yahweh, who is portrayed in Jewish Scripture as a thunderous and violent pro-Jewish anti-Gentile God, and Jews would bow to no one but Him. The Jews had to eat kosher food, could marry only Jewish women, and were not allowed to work on the Sabbath. Jews regarded Jewish heritage and history as superior to others, and all Jews were expected to take part in the fasts and feasts celebrating the ancient epic of Israel. Many Jews thought they were one day going to be the masters of the world, and they had chips on their shoulders that right now it was Rome, not they, who were in charge. Jewish Messianic dreams were a threat to Roman rule. Paul knew that the vast majority of Gentiles, including those in the Roman government, found all this inconvenient, irksome, subversive and out of touch with reality, so he labeled these Jewish rules and beliefs as a type of “slavery.” Paul had to jettison the old Jewish rules, so he did, by reinventing Judaism so that it was more to the Gentile world’s liking.

According to Paul, there was now no need for circumcision or to stop work on the Sabbath. The dietary kosher rules were out; bacon was on the breakfast menu, with shellfish salad for lunch. Paul made the extraordinary claim that to obey the Roman government was to obey God. Paul downplayed the importance of the Jewish temple, and replaced the Jews’ hope for a political Messiah of their own with Christ, the spiritual savior of all mankind. The “kingdom of God,” according to Paul, became a place in heaven, not in Israel. Paul declared Yahweh was such a decent deity he had sent his own precious son, the Christ, to earth. Paul alleged Gentiles were descendants of Abraham too, and that the centuries-old Jewish Law was a “curse,” and a type of “slavery.” All that was now required was faith in Paul’s claims about Christ. Voilà! The Christ myth and Christian theology were born.

It can be argued that Paul was one of history’s first examples of an ambitious cult leader who, when the rules of the established religion were problematic or no longer convenient, simply invented new ones to suit himself.

Paul advocated the replacement of what he called the “old covenant” of the Jews with his entirely fabricated “new covenant.” It is evident that Paul was trying to reinvent Judaism and dampen down Jewish messianic dreams, and that he was bending over backwards to infiltrate the old religion with Gentiles and pro-Roman ideas. Paul had little idea that he was creating an almost entirely new faith, yet that is precisely what his writings helped to do many years later.
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03-11-2015, 06:55 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(03-11-2015 03:28 PM)Alla Wrote:  Mark, You have "what Paul actually said" comprehension problem.
That's all I wanted to tell you. Smile

Bottom line:
It is written that Paul said that nobody can be justified by the law. Mark reads this and then for some reason says that Paul said not to obey the law.
I don't get it. Consider

Alla, Paul said it was no longer necessary to obey "the law."

He replaced obedience to the law with faith in Christ.

I'm still not sure that you know what "the law" was. Tell me your understanding of it so that we are not talking about two different things.
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04-11-2015, 02:55 PM (This post was last modified: 04-11-2015 02:59 PM by Alla.)
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
Law of God is will of God. God gives many laws(instructions) to His covenant people. Every law has to be obeyed. God did not say that we may choose which law to obey and which not to obey. He didn't say that it is OK to break some of His laws.
We have to obey all His laws. But we do not do this, don't we? That is why we can not be justified by law. Only that person who never broke any God's laws can be justified by law.
Adam broke only one law and He could not be in presence of God anymore. Law could not justify Adam.

Mark, you say that Paul was teaching to replace obedience to the law with faith in Christ.
But to have faith in God(Christ) is the law of God. God requires His covenant people to have faith in Him. Why? Because if there is no faith in God it will be no obedience to other laws of God, it will be no love towards God.
have faith - it is law(commandment) from God
love God - it is law(commandment) from God
love people - it is law(commandment) from God
do not kill - it is law commandment from God
observe Sabbath - it is law (commandment) from God
pay tithing - it is law(commandment) from God

P.S. So, what is law of God according to your understanding?

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04-11-2015, 02:58 PM (This post was last modified: 04-11-2015 03:03 PM by Alla.)
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
MARK:
Alla, Paul said it was no longer necessary to obey "the law."

ALLA:
No, he didn't. Show me at least one quote: it is no longer necessary to obey the law? Where did Paul tech to kill, to lie, to commit adultery?

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