Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
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05-11-2015, 02:39 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(04-11-2015 06:43 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 02:55 PM)Alla Wrote:  Law of God is will of God. God gives many laws(instructions) to His covenant people. Every law has to be obeyed. God did not say that we may choose which law to obey and which not to obey. He didn't say that it is OK to break some of His laws.
We have to obey all His laws. But we do not do this, don't we? That is why we can not be justified by law. Only that person who never broke any God's laws can be justified by law.
Adam broke only one law and He could not be in presence of God anymore. Law could not justify Adam.

Mark, you say that Paul was teaching to replace obedience to the law with faith in Christ.
But to have faith in God(Christ) is the law of God. God requires His covenant people to have faith in Him. Why? Because if there is no faith in God it will be no obedience to other laws of God, it will be no love towards God.
have faith - it is law(commandment) from God
love God - it is law(commandment) from God
love people - it is law(commandment) from God
do not kill - it is law commandment from God
observe Sabbath - it is law (commandment) from God
pay tithing - it is law(commandment) from God

P.S. So, what is law of God according to your understanding?

Alla, I'm not sure how old you are or how educated, so forgive me if this sounds patronising. I hope you are aware that most of the New Testament was originally first written in the first century. "God's law" then meant the Jewish interpretation of the Torah. So when Paul wrote, that is most definitely what he meant by "the law". Learn about it here...

http://www.jewfaq.org/halakhah.htm

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
I know what law Paul was talking about. You asked me: "what is law of God?" I told you that law of God is God's will. His instructions to covenant people.
And I told you that Paul didn't replace law of God with faith in Christ(God).
Faith in God is part of the law of God.

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05-11-2015, 02:51 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(04-11-2015 03:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  MARK:
According to Paul, there was now no need for circumcision
ALLA: True. Paul said this. and there is a reason for that

MARK:
or to stop work on the Sabbath.
ALLA:
No, he didn't say that we can work on Sabbath.

MARK:
The dietary kosher rules were out; bacon was on the breakfast menu, with shellfish salad for lunch.
ALLA:
true, and there is a reason for that.


MARK:
Paul made the extraordinary claim that to obey the Roman government was to obey God.
ALLA:
So did Jesus. Jesus also made this claim. And Jesus is God according to the Bible

MARK:
Paul downplayed the importance of the Jewish temple,
ALLA:
No, he didn't. Or do you have any quote?

MARK:
The “kingdom of God,” according to Paul, became a place in heaven, not in Israel.
ALLA:
please quotes

MARK:
Paul declared Yahweh was such a decent deity he had sent his own precious son, the Christ, to earth.
ALLA:
Paul did not say that Christ's Father was Yahweh. Paul knew that Jesus is Yahweh.

MARK:
Paul alleged Gentiles were descendants of Abraham too,
ALLA:
No, he did not say this. please quote. How about Moses? what did he say about Abraham and Gentiles according to your Bible?

MARK:
and that the centuries-old Jewish Law was a “curse,” and a type of “slavery.”
ALLA:
and I explain to you why he said this. Nobody obeys all Gods laws. Nobody can be justified by laws. Break only one law of God like Adam did and that's it, you are doomed forever.

MARK:
All that was now required was faith in Paul’s claims about Christ. Voilà! The Christ myth and Christian theology were born.
ALLA:
not true, Paul never said this according to the Bible you read. He never said: "all requires is faith in Christ.

"MARK:
The “kingdom of God,” according to Paul, became a place in heaven, not in Israel.
ALLA:
please quotes"


“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 AV)
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05-11-2015, 02:54 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(04-11-2015 03:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  MARK:
According to Paul, there was now no need for circumcision
ALLA: True. Paul said this. and there is a reason for that

MARK:
or to stop work on the Sabbath.
ALLA:
No, he didn't say that we can work on Sabbath.

MARK:
The dietary kosher rules were out; bacon was on the breakfast menu, with shellfish salad for lunch.
ALLA:
true, and there is a reason for that.


MARK:
Paul made the extraordinary claim that to obey the Roman government was to obey God.
ALLA:
So did Jesus. Jesus also made this claim. And Jesus is God according to the Bible

MARK:
Paul downplayed the importance of the Jewish temple,
ALLA:
No, he didn't. Or do you have any quote?

MARK:
The “kingdom of God,” according to Paul, became a place in heaven, not in Israel.
ALLA:
please quotes

MARK:
Paul declared Yahweh was such a decent deity he had sent his own precious son, the Christ, to earth.
ALLA:
Paul did not say that Christ's Father was Yahweh. Paul knew that Jesus is Yahweh.

MARK:
Paul alleged Gentiles were descendants of Abraham too,
ALLA:
No, he did not say this. please quote. How about Moses? what did he say about Abraham and Gentiles according to your Bible?

MARK:
and that the centuries-old Jewish Law was a “curse,” and a type of “slavery.”
ALLA:
and I explain to you why he said this. Nobody obeys all Gods laws. Nobody can be justified by laws. Break only one law of God like Adam did and that's it, you are doomed forever.

MARK:
All that was now required was faith in Paul’s claims about Christ. Voilà! The Christ myth and Christian theology were born.
ALLA:
not true, Paul never said this according to the Bible you read. He never said: "all requires is faith in Christ.

MARK:
Paul alleged Gentiles were descendants of Abraham too,
ALLA:
No, he did not say this. please quote.


Jews thought they were Abraham’s descendants and God’s special people. Yet Paul claimed:

“Those therefore who rely on faith receive the same blessing as Abraham, the man of faith.” (Gal. 3:9, NJB,) and

“Merely by belonging to Christ you are the posterity of Abraham, the heirs he was promised” (Gal. 3:29, NJB.)

Paul wanted believing Gentiles to consider themselves God’s chosen, so that they too were special, and at the same time weaken the patriotic fervor of Jews by downplaying their exclusivity.
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05-11-2015, 03:00 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(04-11-2015 07:26 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Here we go...again. Paul wrote to a Jewish community in Rome and encouraged them to be servile to the Roman government:
(04-11-2015 07:26 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.” (Romans 13:1-10 NIV.)
Paul didn't say that Roman government is of God.
Paul said: "let every soul to be subject unto the higher powers.
Alla: what higher powers? who is higher powers?
Paul says: " for there is no power but of God: the powers that be ordained of God.
Alla: how do we call powers that are ordained of God?
The Bible: priesthood; priesthood authorities
Paul was talking about priesthood authorities in God's Church and not about Roman government.

Paul also says in this chapter that Saints of God's Church have to pay their debts(be honest in dealing with fellow men) verse 8: owe no man any thing
If I want to be honest I will pay taxes also. That is what God's people do. Or suppose to do.

So, where did Paul exactly say that Roman government is of God (according to the NT)?

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05-11-2015, 03:01 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(05-11-2015 02:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 06:43 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Alla, I'm not sure how old you are or how educated, so forgive me if this sounds patronising. I hope you are aware that most of the New Testament was originally first written in the first century. "God's law" then meant the Jewish interpretation of the Torah. So when Paul wrote, that is most definitely what he meant by "the law". Learn about it here...

http://www.jewfaq.org/halakhah.htm

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
I know what law Paul was talking about. You asked me: "what is law of God?" I told you that law of God is God's will. His instructions to covenant people.
And I told you that Paul didn't replace law of God with faith in Christ(God).
Faith in God is part of the law of God.

I don't think you are right. Where do you think the "law of God" is documented?
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05-11-2015, 03:16 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(05-11-2015 02:54 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Jews thought they were Abraham’s descendants and God’s special people. Yet Paul claimed:

“Those therefore who rely on faith receive the same blessing as Abraham, the man of faith.” (Gal. 3:9, NJB,) and
Mark Wrote:“Merely by belonging to Christ you are the posterity of Abraham, the heirs he was promised” (Gal. 3:29, NJB.)
Mark Wrote:Paul wanted believing Gentiles to consider themselves God’s chosen, so that they too were special, and at the same time weaken the patriotic fervor of Jews by downplaying their exclusivity.

Paul was teaching Gentiles about promise of God to Abraham:
Genesis 12:
3 and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curses thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed"
Those Gentiles who believe in God of Abraham are blessed [b]in Abraham
. They become his children/his seed. They are adopted to house of Abraham.
this is what Paul was teaching. Jews did not accept this promise of their God to Abraham.

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05-11-2015, 03:17 PM (This post was last modified: 05-11-2015 03:21 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(05-11-2015 03:00 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 07:26 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Here we go...again. Paul wrote to a Jewish community in Rome and encouraged them to be servile to the Roman government:
(04-11-2015 07:26 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.” (Romans 13:1-10 NIV.)
Paul didn't say that Roman government is of God.
Paul said: "let every soul to be subject unto the higher powers.
Alla: what higher powers? who is higher powers?
Paul says: " for there is no power but of God: the powers that be ordained of God.
Alla: how do we call powers that are ordained of God?
The Bible: priesthood; priesthood authorities
Paul was talking about priesthood authorities in God's Church and not about Roman government.

Paul also says in this chapter that Saints of God's Church have to pay their debts(be honest in dealing with fellow men) verse 8: owe no man any thing
If I want to be honest I will pay taxes also. That is what God's people do. Or suppose to do.

So, where did Paul exactly say that Roman government is of God (according to the NT)?

Alla, you are WRONG.

There were no Christian churches as we know them in Paul's day. There were no Christian priests, no church hierarchies or physical buildings representing Christendom.

Paul was very obviously referring to the Roman government....

"But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.”

Please...do some reading on the history and stop making stuff up. You're almost as bad as Q.Big Grin
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05-11-2015, 03:28 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(05-11-2015 03:01 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 02:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  I know what law Paul was talking about. You asked me: "what is law of God?" I told you that law of God is God's will. His instructions to covenant people.
And I told you that Paul didn't replace law of God with faith in Christ(God).
Faith in God is part of the law of God.

I don't think you are right. Where do you think the "law of God" is documented?
In the Scriptures which where written by God's prophets.
Deut: 32:20 (Lord said to His people who didn't have faith in Rock of salvation anymore):
for they are a very forward generation, children in whom is no faith
God is not happy they have no faith in Rock(in Him).
If it was not His will(law) God wouldn't care they have no faith.
Lord said and what Lord says is His law: Hab 2: but the just shall live by his faith Period. God said: live by faith. It is God's law. Instruction.

Paul did not replace faith with law. Faith in God is the law. Without faith in God it will be no obedience to God.

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05-11-2015, 03:39 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(05-11-2015 03:17 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 03:00 PM)Alla Wrote:  Paul didn't say that Roman government is of God.
Paul said: "let every soul to be subject unto the higher powers.
Alla: what higher powers? who is higher powers?
Paul says: " for there is no power but of God: the powers that be ordained of God.
Alla: how do we call powers that are ordained of God?
The Bible: priesthood; priesthood authorities
Paul was talking about priesthood authorities in God's Church and not about Roman government.

Paul also says in this chapter that Saints of God's Church have to pay their debts(be honest in dealing with fellow men) verse 8: owe no man any thing
If I want to be honest I will pay taxes also. That is what God's people do. Or suppose to do.

So, where did Paul exactly say that Roman government is of God (according to the NT)?

Alla, you are WRONG.

There were no Christian churches as we know them in Paul's day. There were no Christian priests, no church hierarchies or physical buildings representing Christendom.

Paul was very obviously referring to the Roman government....

"But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.”

Please...do some reading on the history and stop making stuff up. You're almost as bad as Q.Big Grin

In KJV there is no word "taxes".
Paul is talking about ministers of God(priesthood authorities). He talks about higher powers(God).
There is no even one word about Roman government.


P.S. My goal is not to convince you that you are wrong, I don't care about this.
My goal is to show you that there is no only one interpretation(yours) of these words of Paul.
There is another interpretation(the one I presented to you and the one that I believe is correct)
Smile

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05-11-2015, 03:52 PM (This post was last modified: 05-11-2015 04:01 PM by Alla.)
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
MARK:
Paul downplayed the importance of the Jewish temple,
ALLA:
No, he didn't. Or do you have any quote?"

(05-11-2015 02:32 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Most Jews (the Samaritans were an exception) believed God dwelt in the temple, in Jerusalem, Israel’s capital. Paul made a cavalier dismissal of the importance of Israel by suggesting that all believers become a temple for God:

“And that is what we are—the temple of the living God” (2 Cor. 6:15, NJB) and
“Didn’t you realize that you were God’s Temple” (1 Cor. 3:16 JB.)
I don't see Paul says that Temple of God(building) is something not important or less important.
Paul compared our bodies to the Temple(building). It is symbolism
Paul was teaching that we have to treat our bodies as we would treat Temple of God. If we do this we will have Spirit of God dwelling in us as Spirit dwells in the building (Temple).
If I sin Spirit can not dwell in me. If in Temple of God people do unholy things Spirit will not dwell there.

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