Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
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05-11-2015, 04:08 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(05-11-2015 03:17 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Alla, you are WRONG.

There were no Christian churches as we know them in Paul's day. There were no Christian priests, no church hierarchies or physical buildings representing Christendom.
I agree that in the first century there was no churches(buildings). But there were groups of Christians. Paul was talking to them. He was writing to them. And there were priests among them. Every man who makes covenant with God has some authorities from God. Any authority from God is called "priesthood".
Every man in Israel is patriarch in his family. He is head of the family. It is ordained of God that man is head(authority) of the family in house of Israel. This power is given to every man from God.

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05-11-2015, 06:49 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(05-11-2015 03:00 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 07:26 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Here we go...again. Paul wrote to a Jewish community in Rome and encouraged them to be servile to the Roman government:
(04-11-2015 07:26 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.” (Romans 13:1-10 NIV.)
Paul didn't say that Roman government is of God.
Paul said: "let every soul to be subject unto the higher powers.
Alla: what higher powers? who is higher powers?
Paul says: " for there is no power but of God: the powers that be ordained of God.
Alla: how do we call powers that are ordained of God?
The Bible: priesthood; priesthood authorities
Paul was talking about priesthood authorities in God's Church and not about Roman government.

Paul also says in this chapter that Saints of God's Church have to pay their debts(be honest in dealing with fellow men) verse 8: owe no man any thing
If I want to be honest I will pay taxes also. That is what God's people do. Or suppose to do.

So, where did Paul exactly say that Roman government is of God (according to the NT)?

Alla,

Tonechaser has kindly pointed out the following commentaries. You really should read them, as they make it clear that Paul is referring to secular authorities.

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/romans/13-4.htm

http://biblehub.com/sermons/romans/13-4.htm
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05-11-2015, 06:56 PM (This post was last modified: 05-11-2015 07:17 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(05-11-2015 04:08 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 03:17 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Alla, you are WRONG.

There were no Christian churches as we know them in Paul's day. There were no Christian priests, no church hierarchies or physical buildings representing Christendom.
I agree that in the first century there was no churches(buildings). But there were groups of Christians. Paul was talking to them. He was writing to them. And there were priests among them. Every man who makes covenant with God has some authorities from God. Any authority from God is called "priesthood".
Every man in Israel is patriarch in his family. He is head of the family. It is ordained of God that man is head(authority) of the family in house of Israel. This power is given to every man from God.

"I agree that in the first century there was no churches(buildings)."

Good.

"But there were groups of Christians. Paul was talking to them. He was writing to them. And there were priests among them. "

Well... if we use a very loose definition for "Christian" then you may be right. Yet none of these groups knew about a flesh and blood Jesus. They talked about a spiritual Christ... but this was not someone who had lived amongst the Nazarenes in Palestine. "Jesus" only appeared later, when his identity was created, in the gospels, some time after 70 CE.

I wonder whether you can present any evidence that "there were priests among them?"
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05-11-2015, 06:59 PM (This post was last modified: 05-11-2015 07:15 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(05-11-2015 04:08 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 03:17 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Alla, you are WRONG.

There were no Christian churches as we know them in Paul's day. There were no Christian priests, no church hierarchies or physical buildings representing Christendom.
I agree that in the first century there was no churches(buildings). But there were groups of Christians. Paul was talking to them. He was writing to them. And there were priests among them. Every man who makes covenant with God has some authorities from God. Any authority from God is called "priesthood".
Every man in Israel is patriarch in his family. He is head of the family. It is ordained of God that man is head(authority) of the family in house of Israel. This power is given to every man from God.

"Every man who makes covenant with God has some authorities from God. Any authority from God is called "priesthood". Every man in Israel is patriarch in his family. He is head of the family. It is ordained of God that man is head(authority) of the family in house of Israel. This power is given to every man from God."

If you start making up your own definitions for words like "priest" then we are off in lala land.

In ancient Israel there was a very specific meaning for the word "priest." If you were a priest you were a member of a certain class, a Sadducee.

Towards the end of the first century, presbyters (priests) began to appear in some proto-Christian communities.
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05-11-2015, 07:22 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(05-11-2015 06:49 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Alla,

Tonechaser has kindly pointed out the following commentaries. You really should read them, as they make it clear that Paul is referring to secular authorities.

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/romans/13-4.htm

http://biblehub.com/sermons/romans/13-4.htm
I didn't ask you to show me how some people understand Paul's words. I didn't ask you about private interpretations.

I want to see where Paul called Roman government or any secular government "higher power" or "servants of God".

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05-11-2015, 07:25 PM (This post was last modified: 06-11-2015 01:59 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(05-11-2015 02:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(04-11-2015 06:43 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Alla, I'm not sure how old you are or how educated, so forgive me if this sounds patronising. I hope you are aware that most of the New Testament was originally first written in the first century. "God's law" then meant the Jewish interpretation of the Torah. So when Paul wrote, that is most definitely what he meant by "the law". Learn about it here...

http://www.jewfaq.org/halakhah.htm

http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm
I know what law Paul was talking about. You asked me: "what is law of God?" I told you that law of God is God's will. His instructions to covenant people.
And I told you that Paul didn't replace law of God with faith in Christ(God).
Faith in God is part of the law of God.

"I know what law Paul was talking about. You asked me: "what is law of God?" I told you that law of God is God's will."

If you make up your own definitions for words or terms then no one can have a rational conversation with you. For example if you told me you had a pet that was cuddly and furry, had 4 legs and purred, and that it was a banana, I would probably say

"no, it is a cat."

If you replied

"No... it's a banana,"

the conversation couldn't go any further.

"The law" Paul was referring to was the Jewish law, as laid down in the Torah. It was not what you decide it was.
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05-11-2015, 07:51 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
MARK:
I wonder whether you can present any evidence that "there were priests among them?"

ALLA:
I am not here to present any evidence. I am here to show you that Paul didn't say what you claim he said.

Paul was talking and was writing to Christians in Rome. He told them

1) to be subject to higher powers. (he didn't say it is Roman/secular government)

2) there is no power but of God. (Q: where there is no power but of God? A: How about among God's covenant people(house of Israel) there is no power but of God?

3)the powers that be ordained of God
whosoever therefore resist the power, resist the ordinance of God.
If Paul was talking about secular government then I have a question: where did Paul explain how secular governments(Romans particular) learned how to perform ordinances of God Yahweh

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05-11-2015, 08:03 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(05-11-2015 07:25 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "The law" Paul was referring to was the Jewish law, as laid down in the Torah. It was not what you decide it was.
Of course, Paul was talking about Jewish Law which is will of God according to the scripture.
Still, Paul did not say that Jewish Law has to be replaced with faith in Christ.
Paul was saying that no Jew can be justified by Jewish law. Why? Because every Jew breaks God's law. How many times did Jews brake Jewish Law? Many times. They can not be justified.
Only those who obey Jewish law perfectly can be justified by Jewish Law. There are no this kind of people.
This is what Paul was teaching.
But why can Jews be justified by faith in Christ? You don't know the answer to this questions. You have no idea why Paul said this.
(it was rhetorical question and totally of topic. Smile )

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05-11-2015, 09:44 PM
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(05-11-2015 07:22 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 06:49 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Alla,

Tonechaser has kindly pointed out the following commentaries. You really should read them, as they make it clear that Paul is referring to secular authorities.

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/romans/13-4.htm

http://biblehub.com/sermons/romans/13-4.htm
I didn't ask you to show me how some people understand Paul's words. I didn't ask you about private interpretations.

I want to see where Paul called Roman government or any secular government "higher power" or "servants of God".

"I didn't ask you to show me how some people understand Paul's words."

Bad luck, princess, that's how we talk about things around here.

I want to see where Paul called Roman government or any secular government "higher power" or "servants of God".

Romans 13, as discussed, and agreed upon by the scholars.
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05-11-2015, 10:02 PM (This post was last modified: 05-11-2015 10:07 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Alla and Mark Fulton about Paul
(05-11-2015 08:03 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(05-11-2015 07:25 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "The law" Paul was referring to was the Jewish law, as laid down in the Torah. It was not what you decide it was.
Of course, Paul was talking about Jewish Law which is will of God according to the scripture.
Still, Paul did not say that Jewish Law has to be replaced with faith in Christ.
Paul was saying that no Jew can be justified by Jewish law. Why? Because every Jew breaks God's law. How many times did Jews brake Jewish Law? Many times. They can not be justified.
Only those who obey Jewish law perfectly can be justified by Jewish Law. There are no this kind of people.
This is what Paul was teaching.
But why can Jews be justified by faith in Christ? You don't know the answer to this questions. You have no idea why Paul said this.
(it was rhetorical question and totally of topic. Smile )

But why can Jews be justified by faith in Christ? You don't know the answer to this questions. You have no idea why Paul said this.

Your first question is meaningless. Paul said anyone can be justified by faith in Christ. He just made that up. Being "justified" implies the existence of a judgemental god, and Paul knew nothing more about a hypothetical god than anyone else.

If I say

" I think Mormons ride bicycles on Pluto"

the statement is nonsense, because no Mormon has ever been to Pluto, and you know it. You know I'm making shit up.

Sorry, but I think I do know why Paul wrote what he did. He was a liar. He was a con man. He had a too active imagination. He was trying to control people's behaviour. He was trying to earn a buck. Same as all priests and preachers. He was making shit up.
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