Alla, please answer the question!
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15-01-2014, 11:45 AM
RE: Alla, please answer the question!
My memory is sketchy on this but the book of Mormon has an ongoing commentary on the interrelationship between two tribes, the Nephites and Lamanites, the Lamanites had accepted God then turned away from him so their skin was tainted dark so that future generations would know the sins of their forefathers etc: ... Make of that what you will.

I was a convert in my late teens. I was sort of weak agnostic theist. I had a reasonably good secondary education and was familiar with the attitudes of the bible belt USA and the period of history in which the BoM was written. I had my suspicions anyway but this explanation of black skin I found laughable if not for the fact it isn't funny and I read further in to the church history. I read a lot of non Mormon approved literature and the Mormon counter arguments. I discussed my questions openly with my Bishop and senior elders and found their answers lacking. It was also implied I would have my priesthood suspended for my own good as I was losing my fight against Satan and wasn't heading advice to leave well alone. That told me everything I needed to know! Smile I had also recently read George Orwell's 1984 ... oh the irony! So I left. I had a meeting with my Bishop and told him why. He was a good man but all he had was to reference this one black guy who was a Senior church member in the nearby Hartlepool branch. Every time I see 'Token' on South Park, it reminds me of that conversation. My personal experience with the Mormon church is that it has an intrinsic root in it's geographical original and time in history and like all man made constructs it reflected the human culture of the time. It's racist and deeply misogynistic at it's core and like all religions in the western world, it is now back peddling, by pretending this is not or was not the case, it is a misinterpretation by the secular world, or, there is now new 'revelation' that puts a better light on things that 'The Heavenly Father' has deemed fit for us to hear now.

It's my firm view that this whole process demonstrates a yet stronger case for the argument that secular society dictates morality and ethics to religion, not the other way around. Mormonism is just crazy.

A man blames his bad childhood on leprechauns. He claims they don't exist, but yet still says without a doubt that they stole all his money and then killed his parents. That's why he became Leprechaun-Man

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15-01-2014, 11:47 AM
RE: Alla, please answer the question!
(15-01-2014 11:28 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(15-01-2014 11:01 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  First and foremost - how to recognize false teachings and utter BS.

So it's a question of worldview, really.
No, it's a question of acknowledging reality.

(15-01-2014 11:28 AM)maklelan Wrote:  They are theists and thus are wrong and uninformed, because any idiot can tell that supernatural claims are false and utter BS.
Yep! You got it! Thumbsup

(15-01-2014 11:28 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(15-01-2014 11:01 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Anyone will (by default) come across uninformed if they choose mythical information over realty based information.
So they're really just uninformed, in your opinion, because they accept the existence of the supernatural.
Not just because of that, no. But it's the crux of the problem in most cases.

(15-01-2014 11:28 AM)maklelan Wrote:  It doesn't have anything to do with any actual cognitive or educational deficiencies, it's just their choice of worldview.
Depends on the individual. I'm sure some may have deficiencies. All populations do, but that's not really the problem here. You really hit the nail on the head with that last part. Mostly their choice of worldview. Change that and all these issues (uninformedness) can get much better. But as long as you must hold on to non-reality and nonsense, then you will always be blocked.

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15-01-2014, 11:59 AM
RE: Alla, please answer the question!
(15-01-2014 11:34 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(15-01-2014 11:05 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  I'm ex Mormon. I believe the irrefutable word of God that people are referring to are official statements made by the prophet who holds the 'authority of christ on earth'. What he says is meant to be taken as direct authority from heaven. On this I am 100% certain.

And that's a not-uncommon position for particularly fundamentalistic and unthinking Latter-day Saints to take. Those Latter-day Saints are largely in the minority, at least in the United States. It's not the position the leadership takes, but it certainly helps out anti-Mormon rhetoric, though, which is why critics of the Church will almost without exception adopt their particularly worldview and assert, as they themselves do, it is the only sanctioned and appropriate one. It's a brittle and dogmatic sectarianism, though, and produces more anger and hatred than happiness and understanding.

Makalan,

I was branch clerk and I'm sure you know what that involves. I sincerely commend your enlightened position it sincerely is a breath of fresh air but that's just it. It's a breath of fresh air! It is my experience, assisting in care and theology issues with American missionaries, not just young men and women but older couples on missions after retirement, it is your approach that is in the minority. I attended all conferences and saw to all of my duties and dealt with Americans often. I even attended presentations where an American 'scholar' would do church funded and sanctioned lectures about archaeological evidence supporting the book of mormon. Mid ninetees when masks were supposedly found as worn by nephites etc. You can say that the rigid fundamental view is the minority, but out of the several hundred American mormons I've met. You are the ONLY ONE that has ever took a more intellectual and flexible position.

A man blames his bad childhood on leprechauns. He claims they don't exist, but yet still says without a doubt that they stole all his money and then killed his parents. That's why he became Leprechaun-Man

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15-01-2014, 12:22 PM
RE: Alla, please answer the question!
(15-01-2014 11:59 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  Makalan,

I was branch clerk and I'm sure you know what that involves. I sincerely commend your enlightened position it sincerely is a breath of fresh air but that's just it. It's a breath of fresh air! It is my experience, assisting in care and theology issues with American missionaries, not just young men and women but older couples on missions after retirement, it is your approach that is in the minority. I attended all conferences and saw to all of my duties and dealt with Americans often. I even attended presentations where an American 'scholar' would do church funded and sanctioned lectures about archaeological evidence supporting the book of mormon. Mid ninetees when masks were supposedly found as worn by nephites etc. You can say that the rigid fundamental view is the minority, but out of the several hundred American mormons I've met. You are the ONLY ONE that has ever took a more intellectual and flexible position.

I promise you I am not in the minority here in the States, and even less so in the UK. There are other portions of the world where I have found membership more easily falling into the fundamentalistic rigidity, but by no means is that view of an inerrant and unilaterally divinely sanctioned leadership the norm. I have known thousands and thousands of Latter-day Saints, and I am only one of a very large community of critical thinkers. In fact, I'm probably more conservative than the majority of my LDS friends. I pointed a while ago to a website that collects links to a variety of LDS-oriented blogs in order to illustrate the pluriformity of critical thought taking place in the global LDS community, but I suggest the following for a good overview of how intellectual and flexible Latter-day Saints out there really are:

http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/

http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/

http://timesandseasons.org/

http://messengerandadvocate.wordpress.com/

http://www.sistasinzion.com/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peculiarpeople/

http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/

http://www.mormonmonastery.org/category/home-page/

http://www.motleyvision.org/

http://abev.wordpress.com/

http://www.ldsliberationfront.net/

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15-01-2014, 12:31 PM
RE: Alla, please answer the question!
Maklelan, I know I've asked you already, and you've ignored it just the same as Alla has, but could you maybe please answer the question I asked you? Thanks in advance!

(15-01-2014 10:52 AM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  Maklelan, as a practicing Mormon, you are more than free to answer the original question as well! Please do, I'd like to hear what you have to say.

That question being, "Why do you think black people have dark skin?"

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15-01-2014, 12:41 PM
RE: Alla, please answer the question!
(15-01-2014 12:31 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  That question being, "Why do you think black people have dark skin?"

I don't recall being asked this by anyone, but if that has happened, I simply didn't see it. I tend to get bombarded by questions here, so I sometimes miss stuff. I already posted the Church's stance on the question, but my own belief is that it is the result of high levels of eumelanin in their skin, which is the evolutionary result of early hominids encountering more desert conditions and losing most of their hair covering.

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15-01-2014, 12:50 PM
RE: Alla, please answer the question!
(15-01-2014 12:22 PM)maklelan Wrote:  
(15-01-2014 11:59 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  Makalan,

I was branch clerk and I'm sure you know what that involves. I sincerely commend your enlightened position it sincerely is a breath of fresh air but that's just it. It's a breath of fresh air! It is my experience, assisting in care and theology issues with American missionaries, not just young men and women but older couples on missions after retirement, it is your approach that is in the minority. I attended all conferences and saw to all of my duties and dealt with Americans often. I even attended presentations where an American 'scholar' would do church funded and sanctioned lectures about archaeological evidence supporting the book of mormon. Mid ninetees when masks were supposedly found as worn by nephites etc. You can say that the rigid fundamental view is the minority, but out of the several hundred American mormons I've met. You are the ONLY ONE that has ever took a more intellectual and flexible position.

I promise you I am not in the minority here in the States, and even less so in the UK. There are other portions of the world where I have found membership more easily falling into the fundamentalistic rigidity, but by no means is that view of an inerrant and unilaterally divinely sanctioned leadership the norm. I have known thousands and thousands of Latter-day Saints, and I am only one of a very large community of critical thinkers. In fact, I'm probably more conservative than the majority of my LDS friends. I pointed a while ago to a website that collects links to a variety of LDS-oriented blogs in order to illustrate the pluriformity of critical thought taking place in the global LDS community, but I suggest the following for a good overview of how intellectual and flexible Latter-day Saints out there really are:

http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/

http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/

http://timesandseasons.org/

http://messengerandadvocate.wordpress.com/

http://www.sistasinzion.com/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peculiarpeople/

http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/

http://www.mormonmonastery.org/category/home-page/

http://www.motleyvision.org/

http://abev.wordpress.com/

http://www.ldsliberationfront.net/

Thanks mate,
Yes you posted these for me. Admittedly I haven't spent ages reading them yet but have scanned over them a few times. I certainly don't dispute there are people like your good self out there who take the view you do but I'm hoping you can see where I'm coming from when I explain myself like this.

There seems to be an undertone of being led by the prophet and apostles in more modern days that the church has progressed to be less rigid with the times. This only adds to my previous conception about secular influence forcing LDS hand to adapt to survive. In other words, secular culture causing change within the religion.

My direct experience with the church ended nearly 20 years ago. I see no reason to doubt what you are saying about your view being the norm now, both in the USA and the UK. I don't know your age, so I don't know of your experience in the 90s but I assure you, fundamentalism was absolutely the norm.

If it has changed, I can't help but perceive that as disingenuous, based upon my own direct experience and observations of the time.

I will look at those links more closely out of genuine curiosity but I can't help but think the age of electronic communication over the last 20 years has more to do with the shift in LDS flexibility than revelation. I hope you see my point.

... and thanks again for the links Smile

A man blames his bad childhood on leprechauns. He claims they don't exist, but yet still says without a doubt that they stole all his money and then killed his parents. That's why he became Leprechaun-Man

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15-01-2014, 12:55 PM
RE: Alla, please answer the question!
(15-01-2014 12:22 PM)maklelan Wrote:  I have known thousands and thousands of Latter-day Saints, and I am only one of a very large community of critical thinkers. In fact, I'm probably more conservative than the majority of my LDS friends.


Ok. I call bullshit on that one. you know thousands and thousands of people? exaggerate much?

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15-01-2014, 01:29 PM (This post was last modified: 15-01-2014 01:34 PM by Losty.)
RE: Alla, please answer the question!
Maklelen Wrote:
(15-01-2014 10:14 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  I don't remember a lot, but how can you blame me?

Because you're making pretty firm declarations of fact. When you do that, you open up your claims to criticism. Isn't that what atheists continuously assert about the beliefs of theists?

"I didn't think..."
"I thought..."
"It seems...to me"

If these are firm declarations of fact, what the heck is an opinion by your standards??

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15-01-2014, 02:06 PM
RE: Alla, please answer the question!
(15-01-2014 12:55 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Ok. I call bullshit on that one. you know thousands and thousands of people? exaggerate much?

No, I'm not exaggerating. Since joining the Church I've been a member of about 30 different LDS congregations around the world (the US, Canada, England, Uruguay, and Brazil) that average about 75-100 members each. As the financial secretary of my mission in Uruguay, I got to know 300+ missionaries from the US and South America very well, in addition to the 9 different congregations I belonged to, over the course of those two years. I also now work on a daily basis with LDS translators and their congregations spread across the world. Late last year I visited with two separate congregations in the South Pacific. Next month I'll be visiting four different congregations in Asia and meeting with translators, reviewers, and leadership. In April I'll be meeting with two more congregations in Europe. I also work in a 30-story office building full of nothing but Latter-day Saints.

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