Aloha Snackbar
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01-11-2017, 05:52 PM
RE: Aloha Snackbar
(01-11-2017 05:33 PM)yakherder Wrote:  
(01-11-2017 04:35 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  We have studied this the universal conclusion of those studies is Torture is ineffective as an information gathering device.

Hard to gather scientifically valid data within the context of the situations in which torture has historically been administered. Perhaps we need some clinical tests.

Well, I can tell you one thing - get started with torture, and I will tell you exactly what you want to hear, true or not. Just as long as it stops the pain. I'll say literally anything.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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01-11-2017, 06:01 PM
RE: Aloha Snackbar
(01-11-2017 04:41 PM)julep Wrote:  
(01-11-2017 04:01 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  ...and in the end all we'll find out is that he was your basic human male mammal, wanting desperately to give meaning to his meaningless existence, to attach himself to something Greater Than Himself. Interrogate all you want, truth probably is he's a lonely jerk-off on-line wannabe tough guy.

I saw news reports that said he was married and had several kids. Of course being married with kids doesn't mean he didn't feel lonely and live too much on-line, but he doesn't fit neatly into the standard profile. (neither do a lot of the rest of the recent ID'd mass murderers)

He is male, though. There's that.

Yeah I saw the married with children info too but think everything still applies. Tried the wife thing, tried the kids thing, tried the conventional fitting in thing, and still there was this hole, this yearning for a grander something. It won't surprise me to find out he wasn't a good or reliable provider for his family.

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01-11-2017, 06:04 PM
RE: Aloha Snackbar
(01-11-2017 04:56 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(01-11-2017 04:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  All non-citizens? From anywhere? Permanent resident aliens, too? Consider

Obviously I was talking about Muslims non citizens as i used the word sandbox. We don't really have problems from any other group of legal immigrants.

Ah yes, the great Indonesian and Maldivian Deserts...

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
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01-11-2017, 06:11 PM
RE: Aloha Snackbar
(01-11-2017 05:52 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(01-11-2017 05:33 PM)yakherder Wrote:  Hard to gather scientifically valid data within the context of the situations in which torture has historically been administered. Perhaps we need some clinical tests.

Well, I can tell you one thing - get started with torture, and I will tell you exactly what you want to hear, true or not. Just as long as it stops the pain. I'll say literally anything.

People will say whatever you want to hear even to end a line of questioning without torture. Heck, I'll tell a supervisor what they want to hear if it'll get me to lunch two minutes early. Hence the need for a professional who understands the way the mind works and how to elicit useful information utilizing a variety of interrogation methods depending on the situation.

Some of the same tactics can be applied across the board. Asking questions to which you already know the answer in order to observe their behaviour when lying or telling the truth. Having multiple people going through a similar interrogation process in order to cross reference responses, starting with a phase in which they are unaware of their counterparts' concurrent interrogation and, when the time is right, eventually informing them of the other's presence. Torture is just one tool of many in this process, and understanding what it can and cannot accomplish is just as important as with any other tool. Only an amateur or a fool would simply ask a question and assume the response is valid, torture or no torture.

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01-11-2017, 06:46 PM
RE: Aloha Snackbar
(01-11-2017 03:56 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I've had enough.

As a matter of fact, so have I.

I have had enough of cowards who would throw away the constitution out of fear.

I have had enough of cowards who would punish the innocent along with the guilty.

The law of the land is INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, not KILL THEM ALL AND LET GOD SORT THEM OUT.

Do you know why ISIS exists? WE CREATED ISIS.

It exists because the US of A invaded a sovereign nation (that'd be Iraq) under false pretenses (W.M.D.s) and totally destabilized the entire region. Then when we got tired of doing the job we started, we pulled out and left the fledgling government too weak and vulnerable to support themselves. Should I post the maps of ISIS territory? Territory taken mostly from Syria and Iraq. They were able to do that because of US.

But ISIS is not just about land. It's about fanatics willing to kill, torture and die for their cause. In other words, terrorism. How many terrorists did the war in Iraq create?

During the Iraq war, the US had a nifty little program where we kidnapped foreign nationals, took them to secret, overseas prisons and tortured them for information. "Innocence" was never a factor because no crimes were being punished. It was torture for information. Along the way we violated the laws of multiple sovereign nations, including our own.

How many terrorists have we created? How many of the children that grew up suffering from our cruelty have become terrorists?

Now you want to continue this? More torture? You people are still advocating torture? Are you that fucking stupid?

Torture has been proven to be ineffective, repeatedly. Victims of torture say what they think their torturers want to hear, not the truth. So it does nothing to help, it creates more enemies and in regards to information gained, it actually hurts the cause. Torture also violates the human rights we claim to support, making us, at best, liars and hypocrites.

And you support this????

I have had enough of cowards who willingly give up their civil rights in exchange for the "freedom" of a fascist government.

During the War on Terror, we established secret courts and secret prisons and secret trials. Prisoners were held without charges, without access to lawyers, and without trial. And that is just what we know about regarding the prisons that have become public. What about the ones that remain secret?

And lets not forget The Patriot Act, the Department of Homeland Security, the wholesale violation of internet and cellphone privacy, and all the other methods of eradicating civil rights.

I too have had enough.

This is not YOUR fucking country. The constitution says "We the People". It doesn't say "white people", or "rich people" or "gods people". It belongs to ALL OF US. Including the immigrants.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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01-11-2017, 07:06 PM
RE: Aloha Snackbar
My understanding that "on-line radicalization" is over-blown and a lot of these guys really do have real-life real-time enablers. Not necessarily the case here but who knows. We should turn on at least a little heat to see if he has a contact and find him. "Torture" is so subjective. I guess you know it when you see it.

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01-11-2017, 07:11 PM
RE: Aloha Snackbar
(01-11-2017 07:06 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  My understanding that "on-line radicalization" is over-blown and a lot of these guys really do have real-life real-time enablers. Not necessarily the case here but who knows. We should turn on at least a little heat to see if he has a contact and find him. "Torture" is so subjective. I guess you know it when you see it.

We started water boarding each other once during a particularly sleep deprived training outing because some of the younger guys were feeling bad that they'd come in after it was removed from training even in courses like SERE. One man's perception of torture is another man's route to bragging rights Tongue

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01-11-2017, 07:35 PM
RE: Aloha Snackbar
(01-11-2017 06:46 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(01-11-2017 03:56 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I've had enough.

As a matter of fact, so have I.

I have had enough of cowards who would throw away the constitution out of fear.

I have had enough of cowards who would punish the innocent along with the guilty.

The law of the land is INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, not KILL THEM ALL AND LET GOD SORT THEM OUT.

Do you know why ISIS exists? WE CREATED ISIS.

It exists because the US of A invaded a sovereign nation (that'd be Iraq) under false pretenses (W.M.D.s) and totally destabilized the entire region. Then when we got tired of doing the job we started, we pulled out and left the fledgling government too weak and vulnerable to support themselves. Should I post the maps of ISIS territory? Territory taken mostly from Syria and Iraq. They were able to do that because of US.

But ISIS is not just about land. It's about fanatics willing to kill, torture and die for their cause. In other words, terrorism. How many terrorists did the war in Iraq create?

During the Iraq war, the US had a nifty little program where we kidnapped foreign nationals, took them to secret, overseas prisons and tortured them for information. "Innocence" was never a factor because no crimes were being punished. It was torture for information. Along the way we violated the laws of multiple sovereign nations, including our own.

How many terrorists have we created? How many of the children that grew up suffering from our cruelty have become terrorists?

Now you want to continue this? More torture? You people are still advocating torture? Are you that fucking stupid?

Torture has been proven to be ineffective, repeatedly. Victims of torture say what they think their torturers want to hear, not the truth. So it does nothing to help, it creates more enemies and in regards to information gained, it actually hurts the cause. Torture also violates the human rights we claim to support, making us, at best, liars and hypocrites.

And you support this????

I have had enough of cowards who willingly give up their civil rights in exchange for the "freedom" of a fascist government.

During the War on Terror, we established secret courts and secret prisons and secret trials. Prisoners were held without charges, without access to lawyers, and without trial. And that is just what we know about regarding the prisons that have become public. What about the ones that remain secret?

And lets not forget The Patriot Act, the Department of Homeland Security, the wholesale violation of internet and cellphone privacy, and all the other methods of eradicating civil rights.

I too have had enough.

This is not YOUR fucking country. The constitution says "We the People". It doesn't say "white people", or "rich people" or "gods people". It belongs to ALL OF US. Including the immigrants.

Pretty sure this country belongs to the militia.

Don't ever pretend it doesn't.

If you don't know who the militia is, please refer to George Mason and the 2nd amendment.

Signed,

60 million armed motherfuckers.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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01-11-2017, 07:42 PM
RE: Aloha Snackbar
(01-11-2017 07:35 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Pretty sure this country belongs to the militia.

Don't ever pretend it doesn't.

If you don't know who the militia is, please refer to George Mason and the 2nd amendment.

Signed,

60 million armed motherfuckers.

Actually, it belongs to the children because children are the future. Everybody knows that.

Heart

Freedom is servitude to justice and intellectual honesty.
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01-11-2017, 07:44 PM (This post was last modified: 01-11-2017 07:53 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Aloha Snackbar
(01-11-2017 07:35 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Pretty sure this country belongs to the militia.

Don't ever pretend it doesn't.

If you don't know who the militia is, please refer to George Mason and the 2nd amendment.

Signed,

60 million armed motherfuckers.

Hope you got good medics. I mean since your 18 yo daughter don't have health insurance because you're an ignorant deadbeat dad and shit. Just how many of you 60 million armed motherfuckers don't have health insurance for your 18 yo daughters? My guess is there's a shitload of you. 'cause you're stupid.

#sigh
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