Alt right protests
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14-08-2017, 03:49 PM (This post was last modified: 14-08-2017 04:11 PM by abaris.)
RE: Alt right protests
(14-08-2017 03:16 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Given the brutalization that WWI brought lack of civilized discourse and prepondence for violence as problem solver weren't exactly surprising, especially when coupled with real threat that communists possesed. No one wanted rehash of SU and fear is great motivator of violence while not being I think conductive to enlightened dispute. Add national humiliation to the mix and you have recipe for disaster.

This doesn't compute. In 1928 the NSDAP was at 2,6 percent. The communists were stronger but not as strong as the SPD and other moderately conservative parties.

1928

[Image: RT4.gif]

This is how things looked in 1932.

[Image: RT7.gif]

As you can see, the communist party won about 100 seats and the NSDAP skyrocketed to 196 seats. Radicalism, left and right, rose in the wake of the crisis of 1929. If that hadn't happened, the communists probably would have held their result, but the NSDAP would never have risen to about 32 percent in a short 4 years. People tend to radicalise themselves in times of crisis. History doesn't repeat itself, but there's one thing the 30ies and our times have in common. And people are still worse of than they have been before 2008.

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14-08-2017, 09:20 PM
RE: Alt right protests
@Abaris
It does compute as what I meant was (mini) revolution like one that happened in Bavaria, though perhaps I should state it more clearly. It wasn't real possibility later on but then I didn't speak about later years in this post.

However one can argue that 100 seats communists get were real threat or at least could be seen as such by part of populace not liking the left.


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14-08-2017, 09:33 PM
RE: Alt right protests
Can't edit for some reason so here's what I wanted to add:

I should write perceived threat rather than real. It would fit better with context of discussion.

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15-08-2017, 02:34 AM
RE: Alt right protests
(14-08-2017 09:20 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  However one can argue that 100 seats communists get were real threat or at least could be seen as such by part of populace not liking the left.

I should have been clearer also. I meant, the communists weren't perceived as a threat by many, but as one of the radical solutions. They were quite popular amongst the workers. One may not forget that the people back then knew next to nothing about soviet crimes.

Of course you're right in assuming that the conservative part of Germany viewed Hitler as the lesser evil than Thälmann.

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15-08-2017, 04:20 AM
RE: Alt right protests
(15-08-2017 02:34 AM)abaris Wrote:  
(14-08-2017 09:20 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  However one can argue that 100 seats communists get were real threat or at least could be seen as such by part of populace not liking the left.

I should have been clearer also. I meant, the communists weren't perceived as a threat by many, but as one of the radical solutions. They were quite popular amongst the workers. One may not forget that the people back then knew next to nothing about soviet crimes.


Weren't they more or less tied with social democrats when it came to support?

Also I would swear that I read somewhere that Soviet crimes weren't exactly unknown quickly after Revolution. Wasn't it Rosenberg who escaped from teritories occupied by Soviets and thus had some knowledge of events?

Quote: Of course you're right in assuming that the conservative part of Germany viewed Hitler as the lesser evil than Thälmann.

Seeing as communists didn't exactly had much to offer to non workers I'm not surprised.

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15-08-2017, 04:38 AM
RE: Alt right protests
(15-08-2017 04:20 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Wasn't it Rosenberg who escaped from teritories occupied by Soviets and thus had some knowledge of events?

Rosenberg isn't exactly the most reliable of sources. He was the chief nazi propagandist back then, editor of the Völkische Beobachter, so he wouldn't convince KPD supporters.

Also, I think you have to make a distinction between what happened in the Russian revolution and the years after, and Stalin's great terror. I'm not that firm in Soviet history, but I think the civil war lasted till about 22', 23' or thereabouts. Many would have been comfortable with what happened between 1917 and the early 30ies, apart from the fact that papers were about the only means of reporting back then. Papers that often were very partisan and created their own news bubbles.

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15-08-2017, 05:02 AM
RE: Alt right protests
You're right about Rosenberg.

As for Soviet crimes they were manifold even before Stalin reign and from my reading I got the impression that they weren't unknown but rather disounted as propaganda against first socialist state. Foreigners could know about Red Terror.

I dimly recall Robert Service broaching this subject in his "Spies and Commisars".


Edit: Gotta go to work so forgive simplicity of answer. Deeper insights have to wait Wink

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15-08-2017, 05:15 AM
RE: Alt right protests
(15-08-2017 05:02 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  As for Soviet crimes they were manifold even before Stalin reign and from my reading I got the impression that they weren't unknown but rather disounted as propaganda against first socialist state. Foreigners could know about Red Terror.

Yeah, exactly. This time was ripe with propaganda and had scarce means and interest to verify stories and rumors.

But to go back to Cjharlottesville. I looked at some footage in the meantime and some of the alt.right were carrying this sign.

[Image: black%20sun%20(2).jpg]

To know what that is, you really have to mean business, since it's not common knowledge. It's part of the SS design of the Wevelsburg, more to the point, in the middle of the hall that was meant to house meetings of the SS leaders. They really meant their nazi business and did their homework at this rally.

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15-08-2017, 07:27 AM
RE: Alt right protests
Growing up in post war Germany I heard many first hand accounts of the rise of Hitler and what followed. This is purely anecdotal, from first hand observers who were very reluctant to talk about it. Many people from that time carried the fear of voicing opinions to their graves, long, long after all this was history.

In the country side of Bavaria (which was largely rural) ignorance ruled. People learned the 3 Rs in school with more or less success. School let out for all the different harvest times because everyone, even young kids, worked the fields then. News travelled by mouth, things that happened outside the village surfaced as distorted stories. Times were hard - my grandpa lost his butcher business because no one could afford to buy the product. People were starving and generally wanted the Kaiser back.

Meanwhile in Munich, Nazi gangs roamed the streets at night, beating people up. People installed mirrors by their windows so they could see what was happening in the streets without being seen in the window... You were either a Nazi or you lived in fear.

I never heard of any other groups roaming the streets. Could be because the Nazi thing turned into such a horrendous thing that stories about others didn't survive the times.

I heard dozens of individual accounts of these times from different perspectives - from Nazi followers to people who hid Jews. (Both existed in my family). I came away with a lot of fears regarding politics and speaking out. Trust no one, it's a matter of life or death. I was young and grew out of it - they never did.

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15-08-2017, 07:36 AM
RE: Alt right protests
(15-08-2017 07:27 AM)Dom Wrote:  Growing up in post war Germany I heard many first hand accounts of the rise of Hitler and what followed. This is purely anecdotal, from first hand observers who were very reluctant to talk about it. Many people from that time carried the fear of voicing opinions to their graves, long, long after all this was history.

In the country side of Bavaria (which was largely rural) ignorance ruled. People learned the 3 Rs in school with more or less success. School let out for all the different harvest times because everyone, even young kids, worked the fields then. News travelled by mouth, things that happened outside the village surfaced as distorted stories. Times were hard - my grandpa lost his butcher business because no one could afford to buy the product. People were starving and generally wanted the Kaiser back.

Meanwhile in Munich, Nazi gangs roamed the streets at night, beating people up. People installed mirrors by their windows so they could see what was happening in the streets without being seen in the window... You were either a Nazi or you lived in fear.

I never heard of any other groups roaming the streets. Could be because the Nazi thing turned into such a horrendous thing that stories about others didn't survive the times.

I heard dozens of individual accounts of these times from different perspectives - from Nazi followers to people who hid Jews. (Both existed in my family). I came away with a lot of fears regarding politics and speaking out. Trust no one, it's a matter of life or death. I was young and grew out of it - they never did.

Wow. I had no idea that what your background was. You're in North America now, right?
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