Alt right protests
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15-08-2017, 06:19 PM (This post was last modified: 15-08-2017 06:26 PM by ELK12695.)
RE: Alt right protests
(15-08-2017 06:09 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(15-08-2017 05:24 PM)ELK12695 Wrote:  That's not the point. They're breaking the law. It's *illiegal*. This is not the same as smoking pot in your house; it's vandalism.

There are *legal* ways of removing that statue. Protesting (without vandalism), writing letters, signing petitions, going on TV to speak your case, electing a new mayor that wants to remove it.

He's a question. You dislike Rick Santorum right? He's fucking jackass and a nutcase. Let's say he said something unbelievably stupid. Do you take a roadtrip to his house and smash a brick through his front window? Destorying what you don't agree with? Anger is not an excuse.

Here's what gonna happen. Instead of *legally* removing the statue, pulling it down like a kid throwing a temper tantrum *justifies* the claims the confederate loving douchebags make about the other side. Ergo, They. Win. That statue will be up; hell, it might get even bigger, because the people who want it up will talk about how their "heritage" was besmirched, and they want compensation.

Obey the law, and if the law is bullshit, change it.

I'm no, I'm not defending Dark Edgelord Helmet. I don't give a shit about him or what he stands for.

So exactly how long should blacks and the whites that support blacks have to wait before those monuments to cruelty to other human beings get moved to museums and taken out of the context of glorifying them as heros? If you fought to keep slavery you were not a hero.

This same bullshit argument about telling blacks or their supporters not to do this or not to do that, and keep it legal, was made during the 60s.

You do not get to equate the response to bigotry and hate as being the same as the bigotry and hate itself. Our nation has never healed from the issue of slavery and until you accept that it is still affecting us today because of having such horrible reminders that glorify a bad era of our history, until you accept that instead of coping out to "history" and 'heritage" and ignore the context of why those monuments were put up at the time, which were an act of glorification, until you understand that, you will keep seeing those reactions.

It really is the same as an abuser blaming their victim.

NOBODY is saying "hate all whites" when they do things like that. They are simply saying they are tired of the reminders in the context of glorification..

No Jew is going to object to a Nazi symbol in the context of a Holocaust museum. Just like nobody who collected artifacts for the Black History Museum that included items from the slave trade, because in that context it is a reminder of what they overcame and a reminder to all what not to do you your fellow human.

But no sane Jew would want statues of Goebbles or Hitler in public parks in Germany just because that asshole was part of German history. Now tell my why the fuck that is so hard to understand?

I am white and I am tired of those icons in the context of glorification. As I said, they need to be moved to museums in the context of what not to do to your fellow humans. History should be taught, but it should not be glossed over in the context of public monuments that have the intent of glorifying a horrible past.

And? They broke the law. Being angry doesn't justify it. Break the law, you go to court, and if they find you guilty, you go to jail.

There are several ways of getting rid of that bloody statue legally without pulling it down and kicking it like it killed your children.

You are not Judge Dredd.




I don't remember Martin Luther King tearing down statues when he met hard times in his fight for the rights of *every American that lives today*, and I respect that man for it.

You have to accept that some people in the US like their stupid racial ideals. And poking the angry christian redneck rattlesnake with 5 AR-15's and 600 rounds of lead waiting for the apocalypse with a stick, might not be your wisest course of action.

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15-08-2017, 07:19 PM (This post was last modified: 15-08-2017 07:28 PM by ResidentEvilFan.)
RE: Alt right protests
(15-08-2017 03:17 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(15-08-2017 02:58 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  And compared Washington and Jefferson to Lee and Stonewall Jackson.

Uh.....

Short memory??


On this, Trump isn't wrong.

Or perhaps you never cracked a history book.


For those that want to villlify the promoters of black oppression - George Washington and Thomas Jefferson are indeed as worthy targets as Lee and Jackson.

Or have you forgiven them both for allowing slavery, and indeed OWNING SLAVES???

Huh

Which one of these people led an active rebellion against the Union? Is that in your goddamn history book? Or did YOU not crack one?
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15-08-2017, 07:26 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(15-08-2017 03:35 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(15-08-2017 03:25 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  White isn't a heritage.

It wasn't about skin color. Heritage. The civil war memorials that the city wants to remove. They were there to protest the removal.

Bull fucking shit. That memorial was put up in 1966, and as with most of them, were put up as a response to the Civil Rights movement.

On top that that....heritage? I didn't realize fucking treason was "heritage". The same motherfuckers who get their panties in a wad because a quarterback won't stand for the anthem are actively celebrating participants and symbols of outright rebellion against the Union.

Go fuck yourself with your heritage bullshit. And this is coming from a life long Southerner.
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15-08-2017, 07:30 PM (This post was last modified: 15-08-2017 07:49 PM by ResidentEvilFan.)
RE: Alt right protests
(15-08-2017 04:53 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(15-08-2017 04:27 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Oh, it's definitely heritage all right. Just not the heritage LDH wants to admit to.

Quite right...

America's history isn't pretty.

It's vile.

But, it is history.

Tearing down statues just allows revisionists the luxury of ignoring that vile history and present a version that's more to their liking...

You mean the statue put up in 1966 as a response to the Civil Rights movement? Or are you so naive you don't think that's why many of these "memorials" popped up around that time? These are monuments in HONOR of the Confederates, not a condemnation.

Also, speaking of history....maybe you should check on what Lee himself had to say about erecting monuments.
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15-08-2017, 07:34 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(15-08-2017 06:19 PM)ELK12695 Wrote:  
(15-08-2017 06:09 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  So exactly how long should blacks and the whites that support blacks have to wait before those monuments to cruelty to other human beings get moved to museums and taken out of the context of glorifying them as heros? If you fought to keep slavery you were not a hero.

This same bullshit argument about telling blacks or their supporters not to do this or not to do that, and keep it legal, was made during the 60s.

You do not get to equate the response to bigotry and hate as being the same as the bigotry and hate itself. Our nation has never healed from the issue of slavery and until you accept that it is still affecting us today because of having such horrible reminders that glorify a bad era of our history, until you accept that instead of coping out to "history" and 'heritage" and ignore the context of why those monuments were put up at the time, which were an act of glorification, until you understand that, you will keep seeing those reactions.

It really is the same as an abuser blaming their victim.

NOBODY is saying "hate all whites" when they do things like that. They are simply saying they are tired of the reminders in the context of glorification..

No Jew is going to object to a Nazi symbol in the context of a Holocaust museum. Just like nobody who collected artifacts for the Black History Museum that included items from the slave trade, because in that context it is a reminder of what they overcame and a reminder to all what not to do you your fellow human.

But no sane Jew would want statues of Goebbles or Hitler in public parks in Germany just because that asshole was part of German history. Now tell my why the fuck that is so hard to understand?

I am white and I am tired of those icons in the context of glorification. As I said, they need to be moved to museums in the context of what not to do to your fellow humans. History should be taught, but it should not be glossed over in the context of public monuments that have the intent of glorifying a horrible past.

And? They broke the law. Being angry doesn't justify it. Break the law, you go to court, and if they find you guilty, you go to jail.

There are several ways of getting rid of that bloody statue legally without pulling it down and kicking it like it killed your children.

You are not Judge Dredd.




I don't remember Martin Luther King tearing down statues when he met hard times in his fight for the rights of *every American that lives today*, and I respect that man for it.

You have to accept that some people in the US like their stupid racial ideals. And poking the angry christian redneck rattlesnake with 5 AR-15's and 600 rounds of lead waiting for the apocalypse with a stick, might not be your wisest course of action.

Not the point, No shit MLK advocated non violence, but even he understood back then when blacks reacted why they were reacting. Again you need to stop judging and listen. This is the same bullshit excuse made every time a black person dies in an encounter with cops.

It amounts to conditions regardless of how you wish people would respond and yes MLK wanted everyone to respond peacefully, but even he understood why other blacks were resisting.

You cannot make this about one defaced statue, you can't simply demand nobody react. It is a simple statement that it will happen. Nobody is saying it has to be that way forever. But ignorance is perpetuating it and blacks continue to respond.

Malcolm X was the opposite, but both he and King were still reacting to the same abuse. It is up to whites how we go about understanding. And that starts by stop over simplifying everything to "just do this'. We are not over our collective history on the issue of slavery or Jim Crow or Segregation otherwise we would not be as it seems regressing back to the 1960s by empowering the alt right and allowing skinheads and KKK and white nationalist to grow in public view. It is 2017 for fucks sake.

Point being, stop blaming the wrong people. If you want to understand, stop judging and listen. There is a reason that statue was defaced regardless of what MLK advocated, but even if he would say, "We cant go about it that way", he certainly understood." Whites as a majority have not had the same collective history as blacks and unless you try to understand that, you will keep allowing the small portion of far right bigots to continue to hide behind you. And you will continue to allow politicians to pander to that bad element.

Whether or not you think they should have destroyed that statue, it still is coming from the same anger of those who destroyed the statue of Saddam. That statue is still representation of a horrible era in our history. Keeping up statues that represent those who fought to keep others oppressed does not make you a hero or worthy of a public display glorifying the wrong side of history.

I think a statue is far less important than protesting by ramming your car into a human being and murdering them and doing so because you are a hateful bigot.

You cannot treat what they did as being the same as a riot after a hockey game or college football game. But do me one favor, stop confusing an explanation for a justification.

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15-08-2017, 07:56 PM
RE: Alt right protests
I agree with GirlyMan about revisionist history.

I can't remember who said it....(or something close to it)

Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Here's how I see the confederate statues. They are a reminder to us of an atrocious war where Americans fought Americans. Brothers fought brothers. Sons fought fathers. Relatives got up from breaking bread together at the tables on the farms and went into the battlefields and killed each other over radically different, equally heartfelt political ideals.

Removing the statues is a little like sticking our heads in the sand and trying to pretend it never happened.

And if we are going to try to go the route of it being a war that never should have had to happen? Then wouldn't we need to tear down the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall too?

Honoring our war dead is not the same thing as honoring a war.

"You mean the statue put up in 1966 as a response to the Civil Rights movement? Or are you so naive you don't think that's why all these "memorials" popped up around that time?" (ResidentEvilFan)

Durham, NC Confederate Soldiers Monument---erected 1924, destroyed by angry mob yesterday.
Justice, NC Confederate Soldiers Monument---erected 1912.
Louisburg, NC Franklin County Confederates Monument---erected 1881. That's Eighteen.Eighty.One.

That's just the ones near me that I know of off the top of my head. So, yeah. 1960s. Okay. Uh huh. I'm naive.

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15-08-2017, 08:02 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(15-08-2017 07:56 PM)outtathereligioncloset Wrote:  I agree with GirlyMan about revisionist history.

I can't remember who said it....(or something close to it)

Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Here's how I see the confederate statues. They are a reminder to us of an atrocious war where Americans fought Americans. Brothers fought brothers. Sons fought fathers. Relatives got up from breaking bread together at the tables on the farms and went into the battlefields and killed each other over radically different, equally heartfelt political ideals.

Removing the statues is a little like sticking our heads in the sand and trying to pretend it never happened.

And if we are going to try to go the route of it being a war that never should have had to happen? Then wouldn't we need to tear down the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall too?

Honoring our war dead is not the same thing as honoring a war.

"You mean the statue put up in 1966 as a response to the Civil Rights movement? Or are you so naive you don't think that's why all these "memorials" popped up around that time?" (ResidentEvilFan)

Durham, NC Confederate Soldiers Monument---erected 1924, destroyed by angry mob yesterday.
Justice, NC Confederate Soldiers Monument---erected 1912.
Louisburg, NC Franklin County Confederates Monument---erected 1881. That's Eighteen.Eighty.One.

That's just the ones near me that I know of off the top of my head. So, yeah. 1960s. Okay. Uh huh. I'm naive.

Personally I think the original ones should stay and the ones from the 60s should go.

What if the Germans had put up Hitler statues in the 60s. How would all the German Jews feel? The actual Hitler wasn't able to drive them out of the country, but I bet those new statues would have.

Preserving old things for posterity is a good thing, whether the memories are good or bad. But one doesn't have to add insult to injury by erecting them after it's all over already.

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15-08-2017, 08:09 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(15-08-2017 07:56 PM)outtathereligioncloset Wrote:  Then wouldn't we need to tear down the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall too?

Interesting point and interesting comparison. The design of the wall is so unique and profound I have trouble imagining even the most anti-war person wanting to tear it down...

Regarding tearing down statues...Are we also going to tear down the statues that honor Union war dead? Don't kid yourself, they weren't fighting that war to free the slaves. (A fair exception might be a handful of New England regiments; we'll leave those up)

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15-08-2017, 08:15 PM
RE: Alt right protests
I realize this is sort of off the monument topic, but a Canadian friend on Facebook pointed out something to me. Segregationist politicians in the 1950s would often speak out against the "extremists on both sides."
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15-08-2017, 08:17 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(15-08-2017 07:34 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  Not the point, No shit MLK advocated non violence, but even he understood back then when blacks reacted why they were reacting. Again you need to stop judging and listen. This is the same bullshit excuse made every time a black person dies in an encounter with cops.

It is not. American citizens have been killed by police using unnecessary force. That is what causes reactions; the people hired to protect you, killing or maiming you for no valid reason. It does not get the same reaction if a man or woman brainlessly brandishes a knife or a gun a police officer; if you do so, you will die.

(15-08-2017 07:34 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  It amounts to conditions regardless of how you wish people would respond and yes MLK wanted everyone to respond peacefully, but even he understood why other blacks were resisting.

You cannot make this about one defaced statue, you can't simply demand nobody react. It is a simple statement that it will happen. Nobody is saying it has to be that way forever. But ignorance is perpetuating it and blacks continue to respond.

Malcolm X was the opposite, but both he and King were still reacting to the same abuse. It is up to whites how we go about understanding. And that starts by stop over simplifying everything to "just do this'. We are not over our collective history on the issue of slavery or Jim Crow or Segregation otherwise we would not be as it seems regressing back to the 1960s by empowering the alt right and allowing skinheads and KKK and white nationalist to grow in public view. It is 2017 for fucks sake.

Point being, stop blaming the wrong people. If you want to understand, stop judging and listen. There is a reason that statue was defaced regardless of what MLK advocated, but even if he would say, "We cant go about it that way", he certainly understood." Whites as a majority have not had the same collective history as blacks and unless you try to understand that, you will keep allowing the small portion of far right bigots to continue to hide behind you. And you will continue to allow politicians to pander to that bad element.

Whether or not you think they should have destroyed that statue, it still is coming from the same anger of those who destroyed the statue of Saddam. That statue is still representation of a horrible era in our history. Keeping up statues that represent those who fought to keep others oppressed does not make you a hero or worthy of a public display glorifying the wrong side of history.

I think a statue is far less important than protesting by ramming your car into a human being and murdering them and doing so because you are a hateful bigot.

You cannot treat what they did as being the same as a riot after a hockey game or college football game. But do me one favor, stop confusing an explanation for a justification.

You can not compare the Saddam statue incident with what we're discussing. Those protesters were not living in the middle of a war, they do not live in a third world country starving to death; the man on that Confederate statue did not brutally murder their family with nerve toxins. The man on that statue died 100 years ago. Many of my countrymen were executed by German soldiers and secret police. I do not have time or silliness to be angry at Germans. The Third Reich dissappeared 60 years ago, and it's leader blew his head off. Germany today has nothing to do with them, or him.

None of what you say provides a reasonable solution to the problem. You imply that it's okay to break the laws that the American people elected people to create, simply because they're mad at something. I call that:
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I have explained to you the other ways of getting rid of that statue in a legal and democratic fashion. If that isn't good enough for you, then I have nothing further to discuss with you on this subject. I will not reply to your posts in this thread further.

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