Alt right protests
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15-08-2017, 08:21 PM (This post was last modified: 15-08-2017 08:38 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Alt right protests
(15-08-2017 08:02 PM)Dom Wrote:  Personally I think the original ones should stay and the ones from the 60s should go.

There were a whole bunch of them put up in the early 1900's at the same time there was a whole lot of darkies being lynched. I think that the was the time when the most lynchings were happening, but I have to check. Many of those monuments had nothing to do with honoring their dead and more to do with justifying their abominations. Oh and reminding darkie where he was, of course.

I've always found Sherman's status in DC was a bit much even for the Army of Tennessee to do.

Yeah, here's the stats.

#sigh
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15-08-2017, 08:24 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(15-08-2017 03:52 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Had the continental congress had the balls to the right the right thing from the start, I'm pretty confident that Washington and Jefferson would have given up their slaves.

Such an action would have altered the course of our history that much is sure.

It wasn't balls as much as it was practicality. Gearing up for a revolution against the mightiest force on earth wasn't a time for idealism, you had to get all the colonies, north and south, on board.

Even later at the Constitutional Convention, after independence, they're still dealing with practical matters like representation, they needed north and south, small states and large states, to get on board with a stronger national government, abolition was suggested by literally nobody and just wasn't on the table. This was before the invention of the cotton gin and I think some southerners were seeing a future where slavery was economically not viable but the social aspects of emancipation were still too scary to discuss openly, there may have been an idealistic hope that it would die out of its own accord.

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15-08-2017, 08:28 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(15-08-2017 04:28 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  The whole civil war was about the states right to own other humans as property that alone places them on the wrong side of history.

Don't agree completely about statue removal (keep some of them up, maybe?) but couldn't be more right about war causes. I'm sure I haven't fought my last battle with a "It was about tariffs!" apologist. Seriously, those exist.

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15-08-2017, 08:31 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(15-08-2017 08:28 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(15-08-2017 04:28 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  The whole civil war was about the states right to own other humans as property that alone places them on the wrong side of history.

Don't agree completely about statue removal (keep some of them up, maybe?) but couldn't be more right about war causes. I'm sure I haven't fought my last battle with a "It was about tariffs!" apologist. Seriously, those exist.

One of the practice questions for my AP US History exam was comparing two historians' views about the causes for the Civil War, and lo and behold, one of them was talking about tariffs.

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15-08-2017, 08:34 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(15-08-2017 07:56 PM)outtathereligioncloset Wrote:  I agree with GirlyMan about revisionist history.

I can't remember who said it....(or something close to it)

Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Here's how I see the confederate statues. They are a reminder to us of an atrocious war where Americans fought Americans. Brothers fought brothers. Sons fought fathers. Relatives got up from breaking bread together at the tables on the farms and went into the battlefields and killed each other over radically different, equally heartfelt political ideals.

Removing the statues is a little like sticking our heads in the sand and trying to pretend it never happened.

And if we are going to try to go the route of it being a war that never should have had to happen? Then wouldn't we need to tear down the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall too?

Honoring our war dead is not the same thing as honoring a war.

"You mean the statue put up in 1966 as a response to the Civil Rights movement? Or are you so naive you don't think that's why all these "memorials" popped up around that time?" (ResidentEvilFan)

Durham, NC Confederate Soldiers Monument---erected 1924, destroyed by angry mob yesterday.
Justice, NC Confederate Soldiers Monument---erected 1912.
Louisburg, NC Franklin County Confederates Monument---erected 1881. That's Eighteen.Eighty.One.

That's just the ones near me that I know of off the top of my head. So, yeah. 1960s. Okay. Uh huh. I'm naive.

Oh cool, you found 1 found before 1900; too bad the majority were put up during the heyday of Jim Crow laws and in the Civil Rights era. So yeah....my point still remains.

Secondly, your comparison to the Vietnam War is silly, unless I missed that we put up a memorial to the Viet Cong. Because no matter how it's spun, the Confederates were the enemy of the Union and traitors.
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15-08-2017, 08:34 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(15-08-2017 08:31 PM)TSG Wrote:  
(15-08-2017 08:28 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  Don't agree completely about statue removal (keep some of them up, maybe?) but couldn't be more right about war causes. I'm sure I haven't fought my last battle with a "It was about tariffs!" apologist. Seriously, those exist.

One of the practice questions for my AP US History exam was comparing two historians' views about the causes for the Civil War, and lo and behold, one of them was talking about tariffs.

Make no mistake, they were insanely high and the south suffered out the ass very disproportionately, but when it comes to picking up a gun and killing...it just doesn't have sufficient explanatory power!

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15-08-2017, 08:36 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(15-08-2017 08:21 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(15-08-2017 08:02 PM)Dom Wrote:  Personally I think the original ones should stay and the ones from the 60s should go.

There were a whole bunch of them put up in the early 1900's at the same time there was a whole lot of darkies being lynched. I think that the was the time when the most lynchings were happening, but I have to check. Many of those monuments had nothing to do with honoring their dead and more to do with justifying their abominations. Oh and reminding darkie where he was, of course.

Yeah, here's the stats.

This.

http://theweek.com/speedreads/718507/str...ights-eras
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15-08-2017, 08:40 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(15-08-2017 08:09 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(15-08-2017 07:56 PM)outtathereligioncloset Wrote:  Then wouldn't we need to tear down the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall too?

Interesting point and interesting comparison. The design of the wall is so unique and profound I have trouble imagining even the most anti-war person wanting to tear it down...

Regarding tearing down statues...Are we also going to tear down the statues that honor Union war dead? Don't kid yourself, they weren't fighting that war to free the slaves. (A fair exception might be a handful of New England regiments; we'll leave those up)

Don't kid yourself that the Civil War Memorials are about "heritage" and "honoring the dead".
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15-08-2017, 08:45 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(15-08-2017 08:34 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(15-08-2017 08:31 PM)TSG Wrote:  One of the practice questions for my AP US History exam was comparing two historians' views about the causes for the Civil War, and lo and behold, one of them was talking about tariffs.

Make no mistake, they were insanely high and the south suffered out the ass very disproportionately, but when it comes to picking up a gun and killing...it just doesn't have sufficient explanatory power!

But although slavery directly caused the war (duh), every soldier had his own reasons for fighting. By that point tensions between the North and South were so great that I'm pretty sure many Southerners enlisted just to "kill them some Yankees." I also think there was a new spirit of rebellious fervor that made many of them actually see themselves as fighting against tyranny and for independence. Indeed, I think the idea of self-determination and the right to secede from tyranny is a potent idea to grapple with, and it comes right from the Declaration of Independence: the states that seceded saw themselves as continuing the legacy of the Spirit of '76. Reading through some of their arguments, about there being no point in two peoples separated by ideology and geography being force to be held together in union -- it's powerful stuff. But then you remember that that ideology was that of slavery. It's just a lot to think about. History is so stubborn in not having easy answers.

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15-08-2017, 08:56 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(15-08-2017 08:40 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  Don't kid yourself that the Civil War Memorials are about "heritage" and "honoring the dead".

Don't kid yourself that things are simple. Things can be about more than one thing. They can be "mostly" this and "also" this and "a pinch of this." It's not beyond the pale of imagination to suggest that in, say, 1912 you had a lot of southerners that had lost dads and granddads in the war that they literally knew and loved. Black subjugation was pretty solid in the south in the early 20th century, it's not like the feeling was totally: "Let's put up a statue of a confederate so our blacks don't forget their place and start demanding their rights!" African Americans in the south knew where they stood without statues to remind them. Sometimes things are primarily what they appear to be; sometimes a statue saying "honoring the dead of our town" really is for the purpose of "honoring the dead of our town."

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