Alt right protests
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16-08-2017, 09:23 AM
RE: Alt right protests
(16-08-2017 08:47 AM)TSG Wrote:  
(15-08-2017 09:06 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  And by easy research, I mean I'm going to speculate wildly! No, you make a good point. I wonder if a bunch of them are with public funds at the town and city level. I don't know but suspect there wasn't much thought given to "shouldn't this be privately funded?" at small town hall meetings, a lot of these statues are in the traditional little downtown plazas of a thousand little southern towns. But maybe somebody could look into it...TSG?Smile

Well, first thing I did was check Wikipedia, and I saw first-hand why it's an unreliable source. There are claims about how historians believe they were built to commemorate the Lost Cause, and how most of them were built during the civil rights movement. The citations for both of those claims? Some put up YESTERDAY, but most put up within the last few months, and of course the 'historians' they cite are Quartz, Vox, the SPLC, the Atlantic, and the NY Times. I wonder if there might be an agenda involved with that assessment...

Aside from that, there are literally hundreds of statues and memorials all over the place, and it would take hours to go through all of them. So I used Ctrl-F. Drinking Beverage Out of hundreds of monuments, only 12 were built during the 1960's, and 9 during the 50's: the vast majority seem to have been erected by the United Daughters of the Confederacy in the first half of the 20th century, from the 1900's to the 1940's.

Now, the SPLC (whether you trust their word is a different matter) lists the UDC as a Neo-Confederate group peddling the Lost Cause, but as their name suggests, they are in fact descendants from Confederate veterans and I don't think it would be too much of a stretch for them to have built those monuments simply to honor their slain relatives.

HOWEVER, something else suspicious is that the citations for many of monuments themselves appeared yesterday as well, although the citations are for websites for the memorials' respective counties and cities. Seems like yesterday sparked the last great battle of the Civil War.

I checked the Wayback Machine to go back to how the article looked in June, before this Charlottesville mess, and indeed it is much shorter and doesn't say anything about historians saying they were built in response to the Civil Rights movement, or in support of Jim Crow, only that whether to keep the monuments is a modern question people are talking about.

It's a real shock to the system, seeing people actively trying to conform history and facts to modern politics in order to push their own agendas.

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16-08-2017, 09:25 AM
RE: Alt right protests
(16-08-2017 09:23 AM)ELK12695 Wrote:  
(16-08-2017 08:47 AM)TSG Wrote:  Well, first thing I did was check Wikipedia, and I saw first-hand why it's an unreliable source. There are claims about how historians believe they were built to commemorate the Lost Cause, and how most of them were built during the civil rights movement. The citations for both of those claims? Some put up YESTERDAY, but most put up within the last few months, and of course the 'historians' they cite are Quartz, Vox, the SPLC, the Atlantic, and the NY Times. I wonder if there might be an agenda involved with that assessment...

Aside from that, there are literally hundreds of statues and memorials all over the place, and it would take hours to go through all of them. So I used Ctrl-F. Drinking Beverage Out of hundreds of monuments, only 12 were built during the 1960's, and 9 during the 50's: the vast majority seem to have been erected by the United Daughters of the Confederacy in the first half of the 20th century, from the 1900's to the 1940's.

Now, the SPLC (whether you trust their word is a different matter) lists the UDC as a Neo-Confederate group peddling the Lost Cause, but as their name suggests, they are in fact descendants from Confederate veterans and I don't think it would be too much of a stretch for them to have built those monuments simply to honor their slain relatives.

HOWEVER, something else suspicious is that the citations for many of monuments themselves appeared yesterday as well, although the citations are for websites for the memorials' respective counties and cities. Seems like yesterday sparked the last great battle of the Civil War.

I checked the Wayback Machine to go back to how the article looked in June, before this Charlottesville mess, and indeed it is much shorter and doesn't say anything about historians saying they were built in response to the Civil Rights movement, or in support of Jim Crow, only that whether to keep the monuments is a modern question people are talking about.

It's a real shock to the system, seeing people actively trying to conform history and facts to modern politics in order to push their own agendas.

Ohhh, such a good nerd. Have a cookie:
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16-08-2017, 09:29 AM
RE: Alt right protests
(16-08-2017 09:25 AM)TSG Wrote:  
(16-08-2017 09:23 AM)ELK12695 Wrote:  Ohhh, such a good nerd. Have a cookie:
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https://youtu.be/8vptexno3Hc?t=2m29s

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16-08-2017, 09:48 AM
RE: Alt right protests
That's a great vid that proved even my own prejudices wrong about the South. I can hardly understand that guy, but he sure has opinions on the alt.right movement.

https://www.facebook.com/bill.bunting.9/...=2&theater

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16-08-2017, 09:57 AM
RE: Alt right protests
(16-08-2017 09:11 AM)TSG Wrote:  
(16-08-2017 09:08 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Yes both are traitors to the independent United States though. But nobody seemed to erect statues of Arnold but 1 marking where he died and some for all union army soldiers in battles he fought prior to his drop.

Just wondering if statues will be erected if the so called altys want to honor their generals of European culture

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British soldiers deserve monuments too. Sadcryface

And the whole point of the revolution was independence, and I bet if you ask an 'alty' about the point of the Civil War, they'd say something like 'independence.' Why should they honor a traitor to independence if they consider people like Grant to also be traitors in that regard? Consider

In a war that was (arguably) primarily fought over taxation, one country's traitor is another nation's loyalist ...

There are monuments to those who fought and died on the British side of the American War of Independence.
These people are called "United Empire Loyalists", many of whom fled to areas that would become Upper Canada, now Ontario.

Among the Anglo elite in Canada, it used to be a "big deal" to be able to trace your ancestry back to these folks. These days, meh, it might make for an interesting icebreaker at a party, I guess.

There is certainly no movement to "take back New York!" Laughat
Nowadays, most of the descendants of these "losers of 1776" would probably argue that they're very glad their ancestors were forced to flee "the States".

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16-08-2017, 10:08 AM
RE: Alt right protests
I think I finally understand what Trump is trying to imply when he says, “I think there is blame on both sides”. Since everyone in his administration is always having to “translate” what he means I thought I’d give it a go.

When he says, “I think there is blame on both sides”, what he is really saying is:

“If those people hadn’t shown up to oppose my Nazi friends no one would have gotten hurt.”

Stand back and think on that for a moment, let’s see how this line of thinking would have applied throughout our brief 241 year history.

“I think there is blame on both sides”. ~ Charles Cornwallis, 1st Marquess Cornwallis 1776

“I think there is blame on both sides”. ~ Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederacy 1861

“I think there is blame on both sides”. ~ George Armstrong Custer, 7th Cavalry 1876

“I think there is blame on both sides”. ~ Kaiser Wilhelm II, German Kaiser 1917

“I think there is blame on both sides”. ~ Alphonse Gabriel Capone, Capo 1930

“I think there is blame on both sides”. ~ Adolph Hitler, Führer of Nazi Germany 1939

“I think there is blame on both sides”. ~ Michinomiya Hirohito, Emperor of Japan 1941

“I think there is blame on both sides”. ~ Saddam Hussein Abd al-Majid al-Tikriti, Iraqui President 2002

“I think there is blame on both sides”. ~ Donald J. Trump, US President 2017

Aesop's Moral:
A man is known by the company he keeps.

A man wished to purchase an Ass (a Donkey), and decided to give the animal a test before buying him. He took the Ass home and put him in the field with his other Asses.

The new Ass strayed from the others to join the one that was the laziest and the biggest eater of them all.

Seeing this, the man led him back to his owner. When the owner asked how he could have tested the Ass in such a short time, the man answered, "I didn't even need to see how he worked. I knew he would be just like the one he chose to be his friend.”


All you have to do is look at his Cabinet to know which way he leans. History will not be kind to the Donald.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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16-08-2017, 10:11 AM
RE: Alt right protests
(15-08-2017 07:19 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  
(15-08-2017 03:17 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Uh.....

Short memory??


On this, Trump isn't wrong.

Or perhaps you never cracked a history book.


For those that want to villlify the promoters of black oppression - George Washington and Thomas Jefferson are indeed as worthy targets as Lee and Jackson.

Or have you forgiven them both for allowing slavery, and indeed OWNING SLAVES???

Huh

Which one of these people led an active rebellion against the Union? Is that in your goddamn history book? Or did YOU not crack one?

Ahem... I think Girlyman already made this point, but all 4 of them were traitors against their legal governments. We must remember that the winners write the history books. If the British had won the Revolutionary War, Washington and Jefferson would be traitors and Benedict Arnold would be a hero. It's all a matter of perspective.

I cannot defend the fact that Lee and Jackson were defending slavery, but I think we should ease up on the "traitor" accusations. They were no more traitors than Washington and Jefferson were. And Washington and Jefferson were slaveowners, which was olb's point.
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16-08-2017, 10:27 AM
RE: Alt right protests
(16-08-2017 10:11 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(15-08-2017 07:19 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  Which one of these people led an active rebellion against the Union? Is that in your goddamn history book? Or did YOU not crack one?

Ahem... I think Girlyman already made this point, but all 4 of them were traitors against their legal governments. We must remember that the winners write the history books. If the British had won the Revolutionary War, Washington and Jefferson would be traitors and Benedict Arnold would be a hero. It's all a matter of perspective.

I cannot defend the fact that Lee and Jackson were defending slavery, but I think we should ease up on the "traitor" accusations. They were no more traitors than Washington and Jefferson were. And Washington and Jefferson were slaveowners, which was olb's point.

They were in open rebellion to the Union, and the Union won; so what sense does it make to have memorials and monuments that openly praise the Confederacy on public property in Union states? I've already said I have no problem with monuments that simply honor the dead of the Confederacy, but any that praise it has no place.

And yeah I got olb's point; but like Trump's statement, it was way too simplistic of a take on the entire situation.
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16-08-2017, 11:05 AM
RE: Alt right protests
They are equal trators as Washington was... but that's the country founded as creator of the history. There were English loyalists still... but their grandsons didn't suddenly decide to respect the failed efforts in some honor of the English loyalists by marching parades and erecting statues of their failed heroes in King George, Arnold, etc. Yet in the 1910s and 20s confederate would of been children began to praise their failed icons who fought.

It's really not different between them because they were both conservative revolution attempts in the sense of wanting to maintain how things are/were before recent growing efforts to shift it. But the difference lies in the reasons for the values.. and yeah the element of success. But maybe England would of helped the South they were friendly too if they had a moral leg to stand on like France helped the colonists

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16-08-2017, 11:43 AM
RE: Alt right protests
The thing about being doomed to repeat history if we ignore it....our next civil war isn't going to be between north and south or black and white or police and citizens. It's already begun at too many of our family reunion tables. Between Democrats and Republicans. And at our family tables specifically, there are already such heated opinions about how health insurance should be funded that it's come to pit brother against brother.

Statues that remind us of a time when brothers killed one another? Not at all comparable to leaving up nooses to remind us of lynchings that took place. Any statue that says anything like "the south shall rise again" oh hell no, that's not appropriate and should definitely come down. Legally. But statues to honor fallen soldiers?

And by the way, I too am a lifetime southerner. With ancestors who died in the Civil War. On.Both.Sides.

Where are we going and why am I in this hand basket?
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