Alt right protests
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16-08-2017, 12:53 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(16-08-2017 12:45 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  Regarding the War of 1812, I would hardly call that an American victory! Both sides punched each other around for awhile (we got the worst of it) and then said, "wait, what the fuck are we fighting for?"

1812 wasn't exactly the year when the British could give the US their whole attention. Napoleon was still holding large parts of Europe, just embarking on his Russian fiasko, more than a year before he got decisively beaten at Leipzig.

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16-08-2017, 12:56 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(16-08-2017 12:45 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(16-08-2017 12:27 PM)adey67 Wrote:  By the time of the civil war you had beaten us twice and in 1812 your navy had more advanced ship bourne guns and gunnery than us and it showed. Even divided we could never have beaten the north or probably the south even given the military arrogance of the UK at the time. We were well aware of that even before the emancipation proclamation certainly from a political and logistical point of view.

My position would be that for a full year and handful of months, it was very touch and go about whether the British would jump in. From the Brit perspective, there were reasons for and against, mostly against, I just believe it wasn't a slam-dunk that England was going to stay out. I think events on the battlefields were another major factor.

Look at the Amer Rev, for example- France didn't jump in and help right away, they waited in the wings and asked: "Is this really going to happen, are these crazy Americans really serious about this, or are they going to cave in?" Because if the Americans weren't in earnest, it would be foolish to jump in. After 1777 it was a worthwhile gamble, it looked like the Americans were going to pull it off. Same thing here, for the first year, the British are watching and frankly the South looks pretty well off. The map hadn't changed much, the south had won some battles, and at Antietam Lee has an army marched up into northern territory! There was reason to believe the North wasn't willing to pay the price to force people come back to a nation they just didn't want to be part of.

The British didn't have to "beat" the north, or invade Washington DC or something. Just well placed and well timed assistance here and history could have been different. Secretary of State Seward was very worried about foreign intervention. I think at one point he said "If England and France join the Confederacy, we're fucked." (maybe it wasn't those exact words)

Regarding the War of 1812, I would hardly call that an American victory! Both sides punched each other around for awhile (we got the worst of it) and then said, "wait, what the fuck are we fighting for?"

My edit was too late.
There's no way we would have risked war with America again, we may have been arrogant but we were not dumb. As for 1812 you still kicked our ass in naval combat several times. You were way to strong it was a no go from the start and we knew that.
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16-08-2017, 12:59 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(16-08-2017 12:56 PM)adey67 Wrote:  As for 1812 you still kicked our ass in naval combat several times. You were way to strong it was a no go from the start and we knew that.

I don't think this would have happened if the whole royal navy would have been dispatched. Which, given the date, was impossible, with Napoleon at the height of his power.

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16-08-2017, 01:02 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(16-08-2017 12:59 PM)abaris Wrote:  
(16-08-2017 12:56 PM)adey67 Wrote:  As for 1812 you still kicked our ass in naval combat several times. You were way to strong it was a no go from the start and we knew that.

I don't think this would have happened if the whole royal navy would have been dispatched. Which, given the date, was impossible, with Napoleon at the height of his power.

Point taken.
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16-08-2017, 01:03 PM
RE: Alt right protests
When I said way to strong I meant at the time of the civil war
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16-08-2017, 01:11 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(16-08-2017 12:44 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(16-08-2017 04:44 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  I think thats a point worth mentioning!

There is a difference puttin gup a statue of Lee on a public square and putting up a statue of Lee in a Museum.

Putting it up in a public square is a statement. Thats what public squares are for. Putting it up in a museum is acknowledging american history and its course over the years. In other words: If you want to accept the confederates as part of the american heritage, but not (because their cause was bad) representing the current US of A, then put him in a museum where he belongs.

Thats why we still have statues of Bismarck in public squares but pics of Adolf can be seen in museums.

(16-08-2017 10:27 AM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  They were in open rebellion to the Union, and the Union won; so what sense does it make to have memorials and monuments that openly praise the Confederacy on public property in Union states? I've already said I have no problem with monuments that simply honor the dead of the Confederacy, but any that praise it has no place.

And yeah I got olb's point; but like Trump's statement, it was way too simplistic of a take on the entire situation.

You do not get the point.


Here's the difference between Washington and Jefferson vs Lee and Jackson -----

Washington and Jefferson won their war. Jefferson and Lee didn't.

Thus born are heroes and villains - all cut from the same cloth.

Yes....I do get your simplistic point, which is "they all owned slaves, so they must be the exact same".

Except the motivations for said wars and reasons for the praise for all 4 are different; that's the point you're apparently ignoring.
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16-08-2017, 01:13 PM (This post was last modified: 16-08-2017 01:29 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Alt right protests
(16-08-2017 12:30 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I don't believe anyone in my family owned slaves but my third great uncle was William Tecumseh Sherman, one of the top generals from the Civil War, ...

Good God, woman. Way to understate your lineage.

The March to the Sea was devastating to Georgia and the Confederacy. Sherman himself estimated that the campaign had inflicted $100 million (about $1.4 billion in 2010 dollars) in destruction, about one fifth of which "inured to our advantage" while the "remainder is simple waste and destruction." The Army wrecked 300 miles (480 km) of railroad and numerous bridges and miles of telegraph lines. It seized 5,000 horses, 4,000 mules, and 13,000 head of cattle. It confiscated 9.5 million pounds of corn and 10.5 million pounds of fodder, and destroyed uncounted cotton gins and mills. Military historians Herman Hattaway and Archer Jones cited the significant damage wrought to railroads and Southern logistics in the campaign and stated that "Sherman's raid succeeded in 'knocking the Confederate war effort to pieces'." David J. Eicher wrote that "Sherman had accomplished an amazing task. He had defied military principles by operating deep within enemy territory and without lines of supply or communication. He destroyed much of the South's potential and psychology to wage war."


And just to top it all off, fucker confiscated 400,000 acres for resettlement of the 18,000 darkies he just freed. Sherman fucked the shit of the South and then made them eat it. This is who the children of the Confederacy truly despise. (Now go and erase all evidence of you and your family on the Interwebz for God's sake.)

#sigh
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16-08-2017, 01:18 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(16-08-2017 12:53 PM)abaris Wrote:  
(16-08-2017 12:45 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  Regarding the War of 1812, I would hardly call that an American victory! Both sides punched each other around for awhile (we got the worst of it) and then said, "wait, what the fuck are we fighting for?"

1812 wasn't exactly the year when the British could give the US their whole attention. Napoleon was still holding large parts of Europe, just embarking on his Russian fiasko, more than a year before he got decisively beaten at Leipzig.

I think Washington DC was burned by British troops that were freed up once Napoleon was either beaten or on the down side. It was like "You little shits have had this coming for a few years now!" Same thing later at Battle of New Orleans, those were hard core veterans of fighting in Europe. Just got out-generaled there.
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16-08-2017, 01:20 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(16-08-2017 01:13 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(16-08-2017 12:30 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I don't believe anyone in my family owned slaves but my third great uncle was William Tecumseh Sherman, one of the top generals from the Civil War, ...

Good God, woman. Way to understate your lineage.

The March to the Sea was devastating to Georgia and the Confederacy. Sherman himself estimated that the campaign had inflicted $100 million (about $1.4 billion in 2010 dollars) in destruction, about one fifth of which "inured to our advantage" while the "remainder is simple waste and destruction." The Army wrecked 300 miles (480 km) of railroad and numerous bridges and miles of telegraph lines. It seized 5,000 horses, 4,000 mules, and 13,000 head of cattle. It confiscated 9.5 million pounds of corn and 10.5 million pounds of fodder, and destroyed uncounted cotton gins and mills. Military historians Herman Hattaway and Archer Jones cited the significant damage wrought to railroads and Southern logistics in the campaign and stated that "Sherman's raid succeeded in 'knocking the Confederate war effort to pieces'." David J. Eicher wrote that "Sherman had accomplished an amazing task. He had defied military principles by operating deep within enemy territory and without lines of supply or communication. He destroyed much of the South's potential and psychology to wage war."


And just to top it all off, fucker confiscated 400,000 acres for resettlement of the 18,000 darkies just freed. Sherman fucked the shit of the South and then made them eat it. This is who the children of the Confederacy truly despise. (Now go and erase all evidence of you and your family on the Interwebz for God's sake.)

Also her great great great uncle has a really cool tank named after himWink
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16-08-2017, 01:26 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(16-08-2017 12:56 PM)adey67 Wrote:  My edit was too late.
There's no way we would have risked war with America again, we may have been arrogant but we were not dumb. As for 1812 you still kicked our ass in naval combat several times. You were way to strong it was a no go from the start and we knew that.

I don't know if that's true, again speaking mainly of the first year or so. Blockade wasn't in serious effect yet. We'll never know how close decision making on it was, there's probably some seriously deep historical studies but ultimately this was all taking place in the heads of the British decision makers, and we'll never get their true point of view, even in their own heads they probably wavered back and forth on a daily basis. On factor to support your side: I do know the north send a pretty firmly worded message to England early in the war to the effect of "You give them outright help we will consider it an act of war and respond accordingly." The north knew there was some under-the-table assistance building ironclads and such, but to come out and ally with the south was unacceptable. Technically the northern position was "This is an internal affair, nothing to see here, carry on!"
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