Alt right protests
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
19-08-2017, 11:19 AM
RE: Alt right protests
(19-08-2017 08:11 AM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  
(19-08-2017 03:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  Seems relevant:



You can't change history, no matter how much it goes with your ideas or not. Most of the people we call out greatest historical men (Mostly) were slave owners.

So what?

Yes, many of these statues were slave owners. At the time it was normal for such things.
I often refer back to a quote Atheist use. "If my beliefs shake your beliefs in God then maybe you don't believe as much as you think you do." meaning for people who believe in God, who say nothing can shake that, seem so scared of people who don't believe. So much for unshaken belief.

If you're so horrified by some slave over, who contributed to history, is a sign of slavery. Then you have no firm ground that we won't go back to slavery or learn from the past.
History is meant to be learned from, tearing it down wont' solve anything but make you feel better about getting rid of 'such evil' in the world. How "Dare we 'worship' a slave owner, for whatever 'minor' thing they did for our history."

Laughable really, you call out theists for saying about the same thing with different words. All because we have a statue of a man who did good things in history, but he dare be a slave owner in a time where slave owners were all around and common.

You do the same thing religious people do, for a different cause in different words.

We are not going back to slavery, a statue means nothing, it can't hurt you, it's history. Just as the bible being waved at me as the 'truth' and will 'save my soul' means nothing to me. A statue of a slave owner won't make me think 'you know I could be great like this guy if I slaves...' Facepalm

History is both good and bad, we already have conservatives trying to change it to fit their ideas, please stop pandering to the outrage of those who call 'slavery worship' if anything they are the ones worshiping slavery because it's a card to get what they want. Just as religious people use the bible as a card to get what they want in court.

Then again, even if you point this out to them, they will call you all sorts of derogatory names. Seems logic and reasoning has no place in an area where people feel strongly to their ideals, no matter how much it pushes against them, hey just like some other group we know of!
All you can do is change history. Because literally every action is changing it and creating it anew.

I don't get how it's not seem as creating more history. The removing of some public structure doesn't erase the history of what it was standing for or meaning. It also creates a new historically notable point of the story and events of removing them just as the building had histories.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like ClydeLee's post
19-08-2017, 12:01 PM
RE: Alt right protests
Kentucky Governor Bevin ®: Charlottesville happened because we took the Bible out of schools.

Worth noting, the first time a pupil shot and killed someone in an American educational institution was when a student shot law professor John Anthony Gardner Davis (he died of his injuries 3 days later) at the University of Virginia in November of 1840 in...Charlottesville. Pretty sure the Bible was just about everywhere then in America.

(19-08-2017 08:41 AM)abaris Wrote:  
(19-08-2017 08:11 AM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  History is meant to be learned from, tearing it down wont' solve anything but make you feel better about getting rid of 'such evil' in the world. How "Dare we 'worship' a slave owner, for whatever 'minor' thing they did for our history."

I haven't got a horse in the American race, but you can savely add treason to the list of what these people stood for. They didn't represent the Union, but the ones striving to destroy the Union by taking up arms against it.

It's the same as if we would still have Hitler or Stalin statues in Europe, because history. These statues still exist, but they are where they belong. In museums and not in places of honor. These statues weren't meant as mementos but to glorify something that can only be shunned in this day and age.

In the case of Lee or Badford Forrest, these people fought against the country, not for it.

Also important, despite fighting against the country, once the war was over, Lee opposed erecting statues glorifying the Confederacy and wouldn't allow the Stars and Bars to be flown in his presence. Jefferson Davis, "President" of the secessionists felt the same, that the flag had no place in a post-Civil War society. Most of these monuments were erected in the 1950s and 1960s by those seeking to revise history and create the new fictionalized history of the Southern cause. So every time I see folks shouting "history" or "heritage not hate", all I can think of is how the people who were behind what those folks are celebrating, were against memorializing their treasonous actions.

Need to think of a witty signature.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Shai Hulud's post
19-08-2017, 01:13 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(19-08-2017 06:30 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(19-08-2017 01:33 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You're a creepy as hell dirty cop.

Since that's all you say to my posts now, you're the first person to be on my ignore list.

All that means is that you won't see his replies. Others will, n00bs will ask around, and it will still be your albatross ... as it should be.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Thumpalumpacus's post
19-08-2017, 01:17 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(19-08-2017 08:11 AM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  
(19-08-2017 03:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  Seems relevant:



You can't change history, no matter how much it goes with your ideas or not. Most of the people we call out greatest historical men (Mostly) were slave owners.

So what?

Yes, many of these statues were slave owners. At the time it was normal for such things.
I often refer back to a quote Atheist use. "If my beliefs shake your beliefs in God then maybe you don't believe as much as you think you do." meaning for people who believe in God, who say nothing can shake that, seem so scared of people who don't believe. So much for unshaken belief.

If you're so horrified by some slave over, who contributed to history, is a sign of slavery. Then you have no firm ground that we won't go back to slavery or learn from the past.
History is meant to be learned from, tearing it down wont' solve anything but make you feel better about getting rid of 'such evil' in the world. How "Dare we 'worship' a slave owner, for whatever 'minor' thing they did for our history."

Laughable really, you call out theists for saying about the same thing with different words. All because we have a statue of a man who did good things in history, but he dare be a slave owner in a time where slave owners were all around and common.

You do the same thing religious people do, for a different cause in different words.

We are not going back to slavery, a statue means nothing, it can't hurt you, it's history. Just as the bible being waved at me as the 'truth' and will 'save my soul' means nothing to me. A statue of a slave owner won't make me think 'you know I could be great like this guy if I slaves...' Facepalm

History is both good and bad, we already have conservatives trying to change it to fit their ideas, please stop pandering to the outrage of those who call 'slavery worship' if anything they are the ones worshiping slavery because it's a card to get what they want. Just as religious people use the bible as a card to get what they want in court.

Then again, even if you point this out to them, they will call you all sorts of derogatory names. Seems logic and reasoning has no place in an area where people feel strongly to their ideals, no matter how much it pushes against them, hey just like some other group we know of!

How on Earth do those clever Germans member Hitler without any statues?

That's right. They read and they educate their young.

Both those tasks seem to be too much bother for many Americans.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 8 users Like Thumpalumpacus's post
19-08-2017, 01:26 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(19-08-2017 06:30 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(19-08-2017 01:33 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You're a creepy as hell dirty cop.

Since that's all you say to my posts now, you're the first person to be on my ignore list.

I am honored that you have not put me on your ignore list.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-08-2017, 01:43 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(19-08-2017 08:11 AM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  
(19-08-2017 03:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  Seems relevant:



You can't change history, no matter how much it goes with your ideas or not. Most of the people we call out greatest historical men (Mostly) were slave owners.

So what?

Yes, many of these statues were slave owners. At the time it was normal for such things.
I often refer back to a quote Atheist use. "If my beliefs shake your beliefs in God then maybe you don't believe as much as you think you do." meaning for people who believe in God, who say nothing can shake that, seem so scared of people who don't believe. So much for unshaken belief.

If you're so horrified by some slave over, who contributed to history, is a sign of slavery. Then you have no firm ground that we won't go back to slavery or learn from the past.
History is meant to be learned from, tearing it down wont' solve anything but make you feel better about getting rid of 'such evil' in the world. How "Dare we 'worship' a slave owner, for whatever 'minor' thing they did for our history."

Laughable really, you call out theists for saying about the same thing with different words. All because we have a statue of a man who did good things in history, but he dare be a slave owner in a time where slave owners were all around and common.

You do the same thing religious people do, for a different cause in different words.

We are not going back to slavery, a statue means nothing, it can't hurt you, it's history. Just as the bible being waved at me as the 'truth' and will 'save my soul' means nothing to me. A statue of a slave owner won't make me think 'you know I could be great like this guy if I slaves...' Facepalm

History is both good and bad, we already have conservatives trying to change it to fit their ideas, please stop pandering to the outrage of those who call 'slavery worship' if anything they are the ones worshiping slavery because it's a card to get what they want. Just as religious people use the bible as a card to get what they want in court.

Then again, even if you point this out to them, they will call you all sorts of derogatory names. Seems logic and reasoning has no place in an area where people feel strongly to their ideals, no matter how much it pushes against them, hey just like some other group we know of!

What history do you learn seeing a statue by a courthouse? Where do you learn why it was erected when it's been there since the 20s and it's just become part of the landscape to you? In fact many of the civil war "memorials" and statues came around during the early part of the 20th century, because quite honestly they were funded largely by Klan controlled areas. The Klan was everywhere, whether people want to admit that or not. So, it' s ok to pander to oppressors and allow them to keep their statues because they don't hurt you, but not the oppressed?

The whole civil war was ONLY about the states right to keep other humans as chattel. Despite the south trying to whitewash that part from history. Poor white people who didn't own slaves also had a dog in that fight, because that would make them on equal footing with the slave, if they were freed. The north was agrarian too, as the south, but the north had to pay their employees and their employees were free to move.

Read the letters of secession. Jefferson Davis truly believed that slavery was right and was elected as the confederate president on that platform. He believed that god created the black man to serve white people. This is all in his writings...We have the evidence that he did feel this way...He also believed that he might be able to persuade France and England to enter the civil war on his side because the south was practically the world's supplier of cotton by that time. Both countries had already abolished slavery and were actually placing some pressure on the United States to follow suit if they were going to be taken seriously on the world stage.

So why are there any statues to him around today (aside from in museums)? What purpose does it serve to celebrate his birthday as a holiday like two states still do? Why do you think that flying the confederate flag on a state building might be offensive?

More than a decade after the civil war, blacks were treated just as poorly as when they were slaves. If they didn't work, they could be arrested and jailed. They often worked the same land, but their "living expenses" were taken out of their wage and they could end up owing the plantation owner money if the crop failed. Some refused to pay them, but instead held their earnings for them, so they wouldn't spend it frivolously. They could be beaten for not doing a good job and even killed. If they wanted to grow vegetables or keep chickens, they had to pay for that space. The sharecropper, rented the land, and returned some of the crop to the landowner before the crop was sold. However, generally the landowner got a better price for their portion of the same crop, plus got to charge for their rent, equipment use, food, and anything else they could think of...

Their children could be forced into apprenticeships if the former slave parents had debt. During the final months and year of the civil war, they even forced slaves to fight for the confederacy. How fucked up and weirdly ironic is that?

If they didn't have cash, they usually weren't allowed to buy their own land -- no bank would give them loans. Their reparations were ignored by congress.

In the north, because of Jefferson Davis buying influence in northern newspapers to capitalize on the anti war sentiment, suddenly black people living there were subjected to prejudices they hadn't faced before. Segregation became more commonplace.

The klan was born after the civil war, and we all know about them, but their influence spread like a virus across the country. Especially in the south, black people could be not allowed to vote for any reason the town/county/state. The bar would be moved at the whim of the county registrar. He could ask them anything. It's amazing to think that a large swath of a counties population wouldn't be allowed to vote to effect a positive change because some white folk were afraid of losing power.

Duke Ellington and his orchestra appeared in a movie and the director made some of his band darken up their faces so that they wouldn't appear to be light on camera so people wouldn't think his band might be integrated. Because that shit was illegal.

Even in the post WW2 1950s, entertainers like Sammy Davis Jr and Nat King Cole weren't allowed to stay in the hotels they performed in.

This shit continued until the civil rights act was passed in 1964 almost 100 years AFTER the civil war ended. It didn't stop the oppression, but emboldened the oppressors to double down on their shit.

In the 21st century this shit shouldn't still be around except for museums where the appropriate context can provided. Because the context of a statue sitting in a park is lost on the general public, it just becomes something they're used to seeing -- like background noise it's not noticed until someone points it out to them and they're finally willing to listen.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 10 users Like Momsurroundedbyboys's post
19-08-2017, 01:49 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(19-08-2017 01:17 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(19-08-2017 08:11 AM)Ruby Crystal Wrote:  You can't change history, no matter how much it goes with your ideas or not. Most of the people we call out greatest historical men (Mostly) were slave owners.

So what?

Yes, many of these statues were slave owners. At the time it was normal for such things.
I often refer back to a quote Atheist use. "If my beliefs shake your beliefs in God then maybe you don't believe as much as you think you do." meaning for people who believe in God, who say nothing can shake that, seem so scared of people who don't believe. So much for unshaken belief.

If you're so horrified by some slave over, who contributed to history, is a sign of slavery. Then you have no firm ground that we won't go back to slavery or learn from the past.
History is meant to be learned from, tearing it down wont' solve anything but make you feel better about getting rid of 'such evil' in the world. How "Dare we 'worship' a slave owner, for whatever 'minor' thing they did for our history."

Laughable really, you call out theists for saying about the same thing with different words. All because we have a statue of a man who did good things in history, but he dare be a slave owner in a time where slave owners were all around and common.

You do the same thing religious people do, for a different cause in different words.

We are not going back to slavery, a statue means nothing, it can't hurt you, it's history. Just as the bible being waved at me as the 'truth' and will 'save my soul' means nothing to me. A statue of a slave owner won't make me think 'you know I could be great like this guy if I slaves...' Facepalm

History is both good and bad, we already have conservatives trying to change it to fit their ideas, please stop pandering to the outrage of those who call 'slavery worship' if anything they are the ones worshiping slavery because it's a card to get what they want. Just as religious people use the bible as a card to get what they want in court.

Then again, even if you point this out to them, they will call you all sorts of derogatory names. Seems logic and reasoning has no place in an area where people feel strongly to their ideals, no matter how much it pushes against them, hey just like some other group we know of!

How on Earth do those clever Germans member Hitler without any statues?

That's right. They read and they educate their young.

Both those tasks seem to be too much bother for many Americans.

I know, I made that remark in another thread (or maybe this one earlier), but yeah, where are statues to Gestapo honoring their service across Europe? There are better far more effective ways to learn about history than seeing a statue in a park.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Momsurroundedbyboys's post
19-08-2017, 02:06 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(19-08-2017 01:49 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(19-08-2017 01:17 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  How on Earth do those clever Germans member Hitler without any statues?

That's right. They read and they educate their young.

Both those tasks seem to be too much bother for many Americans.

I know, I made that remark in another thread (or maybe this one earlier), but yeah, where are statues to Gestapo honoring their service across Europe? There are better far more effective ways to learn about history than seeing a statue in a park.

The concentration camps are preserved, and I hear that all school children are taken there to experience it. There are also bombed out buildings as reminders. And of course the museums.

I do think that tangible reminders of times gone by are worthy of preservation. But you don't need hundreds of them. That's just silly. And they should actually bear witness by having a plaque explaining the history and the reason they were erected.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Dom's post
19-08-2017, 02:16 PM
RE: Alt right protests
This guy looks familiar but I can't seem to figure how I remember him.


Attached File(s) Thumbnail(s)
   

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
[Image: 25397spaceballs.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-08-2017, 02:32 PM
RE: Alt right protests
(19-08-2017 02:06 PM)Dom Wrote:  The concentration camps are preserved, and I hear that all school children are taken there to experience it. There are also bombed out buildings as reminders. And of course the museums.

They are mementos combined with museums. There's a difference between a memento and a memorial errected in honor of some historical figure.

[Image: Labrador%20and%20Title.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like abaris's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: