Am I Atheist or Agnostic?
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18-03-2012, 09:58 AM
RE: Am I Atheist or Agnostic?
Sup, Free?

One is no more Agnostic ABOUT something than they are NORWEGIAN about something. One is simply AN Agnostic. The criteria for belief, disbelief, or neutrality is whether or not something has been proven for, has been proven against, is as of yet unproven either way, or is indemonstrable.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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18-03-2012, 10:43 AM
RE: Am I Atheist or Agnostic?
It's funny because I knew if there was any type of thread to bring Ghost back into the foray it would be one just like this. Also it's like the only thing me and him agree on.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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18-03-2012, 06:45 PM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2012 06:51 PM by Starcrash.)
RE: Am I Atheist or Agnostic?
(18-03-2012 09:58 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Sup, Free?

One is no more Agnostic ABOUT something than they are NORWEGIAN about something. One is simply AN Agnostic. The criteria for belief, disbelief, or neutrality is whether or not something has been proven for, has been proven against, is as of yet unproven either way, or is indemonstrable.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Of course you can be agnostic "about" something... agnostic is an adjective as well as a noun. And please don't pull me into a debate about epistemology again over whether the dictionary is the proper source of citation when questioning words, especially about whether or not they can be adjectives. Your rant about ideology is not a valid one here, because the dictionary does not have one --- the authors of a dictionary do not have an agenda to push, nor a bias. You haven't suggested an alternative way to get to the meaning of words that is more valid than going to a reference book except, as you've demonstrated above, to proclaim it in all caps to discourage argument against your loud assertion.

It should also be noted that your analogy is a poor one. You use the word "Norwegian" because it is one of the adjectives that is nonsense when paired with "about". If you see agnostic as synonymous with "noncommittal", then you can be as agnostic about something as you can be noncommittal about it. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you didn't understand that there are some adjectives that can't be paired with "about" because they don't express feeling or emotion, rather than assume you were unscrupulous in your choice of an analogy.

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19-03-2012, 06:46 AM
RE: Am I Atheist or Agnostic?
Hey, Starcrash.

Please don't dismiss what I have to say with cheap lines like "rant". You know as well as I do that that was a considered position. You do us both a disservice. Let's forget it and move on.

I can accept your use of Agnostic as an adjective. It has to do with the Agnostic/Gnostic argument; one I happen to disagree with. I just don't like using Agnostic as an adjective because to me it's like saying, "I'm scientific about gravity, but not physics." Agnosticism, like science, is a method as defined by the man who coined the term. It's a WAY not a CONCLUSION about something. The conclusion comes from the way. I'm not Agnostic about something, I believe in something, or disbelieve it, or I reserve my judgement about something. I reserve my judgement about God because it's indemonstrable, I remain curious but reserve my judgement about Predator-style camouflage suits because it has not been demonstrated that the few advances in cloaking technology can be scaled up for that sort of application, I believe in space flight because it's been demonstrated and I disbelieve in the Flying Spaghetti Monster because it's been proven that it was a fictional character created as an act of protest by Bobby Henderson in 2005.

Quote:You haven't suggested an alternative way to get to the meaning of words that is more valid than going to a reference book except, as you've demonstrated above, to proclaim it in all caps to discourage argument against your loud assertion.

CAPS are for emphasis. Nothing more.

And I quite clearly suggested an alternative way to get to the meaning of words. Discourse. But you dismissed it. And for the last time, I have not said that reference books have zero value; that's a strawman argument. I have said that they have limitation, that definitions come about through discourse, that definitions are ideological, that concealing that discourse is hegemony and that attempting to limit further discourse and the meaning of words is a matter of power. Finally, of course dictionaries have bias. I'll just leave that one at that.

I have made an assertion. The difference between your post and mine is that I have made the equally loud assertion that I understand and accept the existence of your point of view. So don't talk that jive about me discouraging argument.

Hey, Lucradis.

Damn skippy, brother Cool

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Matt
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19-03-2012, 11:47 AM
RE: Am I Atheist or Agnostic?
I feel that what is has been ignored from the get go in this topic is that atheist is the default position. It is not a positive stance which is what the OP seems concerned about.

There is a distinct difference upon the

Weak Atheism= I don't believe in a deity.
Strong Atheist= I believe there are no deities.

Ghost can believe what he chooses about the about the agnostic term. It has taken multiple meanings over time beyond the coining of Huxley.

I feel the Jillian test brought up is the perfect answer... because it is as simple as:

Are you a theist?(anyway you chose to define the idea)

If you answer no, you're A-theist... I think it also includes if you answer, I am reserving my judgement on that topic, because you haven't made the positive claim of theism with that stance; therefore, you would be A-Theist. (A=Non/Without )
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19-03-2012, 01:01 PM
RE: Am I Atheist or Agnostic?
(19-03-2012 11:47 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I feel that what is has been ignored from the get go in this topic is that atheist is the default position. It is not a positive stance which is what the OP seems concerned about.

There is a distinct difference upon the

Weak Atheism= I don't believe in a deity.
Strong Atheist= I believe there are no deities.

Ghost can believe what he chooses about the about the agnostic term. It has taken multiple meanings over time beyond the coining of Huxley.

I feel the Jillian test brought up is the perfect answer... because it is as simple as:

Are you a theist?(anyway you chose to define the idea)

If you answer no, you're A-theist... I think it also includes if you answer, I am reserving my judgement on that topic, because you haven't made the positive claim of theism with that stance; therefore, you would be A-Theist. (A=Non/Without )


Unless of course you are a DEist, in which you are not a theist or an atheist. ;D

There are many titles and labels for people.

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19-03-2012, 02:21 PM
RE: Am I Atheist or Agnostic?
Deists believe in a god/s therefore deists are theists.
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19-03-2012, 05:33 PM (This post was last modified: 19-03-2012 07:11 PM by craniumonempty.)
RE: Am I Atheist or Agnostic?
[xquote='Logica Humano' pid='93364' dateline='1332183673']
Unless of course you are a DEist, in which you are not a theist or an atheist. ;D

There are many titles and labels for people.

[/quote]

It depends on what you would call a theist. If the deist definition doesn't fall under theist, then it falls under something that is not a theist, so by definition atheist. However, if deist believe in a deity (which I'm pretty sure that's all it takes to fall under the definition of a theist), then they are a theist. Granted, like I said earlier, if the god is simply a natural.. something that has no supernatural powers, then I wouldn't consider that a theist, simply someone renaming something as a god for some reason. Seems odd to me why someone would do that though.

As far as people calling themselves atheist or theists or whatever, if someone doesn't label themselves an atheist, doesn't mean they don't fit the definition. They probably don't like the word, disagree with the definition of "not theist" and/or disagree with the definition of a theist, or they simply don't know what either is.. well, there might be more. Either way, if a person gives no indication of whether they believe in a deity or not, then it wouldn't be fair to classify them as anything, and even if you could classify them as atheist, doesn't mean they would agree with it. Just like I don't agree with being classified as "Caucasian". If they want my skin color, they could just ask that, and "white" is not my skin color regardless of what people say. I'll still check the stupid box for the government if I have too, but really wish they would update the system. Someone needs to come up with a better system and implement it. I'd rather them ask the color of my skin in the section where they ask the color of my hair and eyes.

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19-03-2012, 07:01 PM (This post was last modified: 19-03-2012 07:19 PM by free2011.)
RE: Am I Atheist or Agnostic?
(18-03-2012 09:58 AM)Ghost Wrote:  One is no more Agnostic ABOUT something than they are NORWEGIAN about something. One is simply AN Agnostic. The criteria for belief, disbelief, or neutrality is whether or not something has been proven for, has been proven against, is as of yet unproven either way, or is indemonstrable.

As Starcrash noted "agnostic" can be used as an adjective as well as a noun. Essentially asserting uncertainty of all claims to knowledge. Let's get away from the labels and get to the meaning behind them. If one asserts their uncertainty about a god or gods then that same person should also take this view of all other fairy tales until they can be proven false. Those that claim to be agnostic are, as Stephen Cobert stated, "Atheist's without balls".

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19-03-2012, 07:10 PM (This post was last modified: 20-03-2012 04:07 PM by craniumonempty.)
RE: Am I Atheist or Agnostic?
(19-03-2012 07:01 PM)free2011 Wrote:  As Starcrash noted "agnostic" can be used as an adjective as well as a noun. Essentially asserting uncertainty of all claims to knowledge. Let's get away from the labels and get to the meaning behind them. If one asserts their uncertainty about a god or gods then that same person should also take this view of all other fairy tales until they can be proven false. Those that claim to be agnostic are either an atheist without guts or theist without confidence.

While that might be true for some, you are still neglecting that they may not agree with or know the definition. There are a few stories of people that were becoming atheists that at first didn't know the meaning of the word atheist.

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