Am I being terrible?
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03-11-2011, 12:55 PM
Am I being terrible?
Long story so I'll shorten it down.

I've just been arguing with my mum and sister (I like arguing Smile) because in a conversation, can't remember how it came up, I basically said I think people that have belief without any sort of logic/evidence lack a certain intelligence, not necessarily academic intelligence but some form of intelligence is lacking. I also said that they are generally less intelligent than people who justify their beliefs with empirical evidence. I also said that as far as a long term partner goes I would prefer someone with the 'higher' intelligence I just described.

Is that really such a terrible thing to say? I'm being treated like the devil right now (not that it particularly bothers me). I thought it was a fair comment.

Just to add a little context they are both religious and I am not.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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03-11-2011, 01:09 PM
RE: Am I being terrible?
(03-11-2011 12:55 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Long story so I'll shorten it down.

I've just been arguing with my mum and sister (I like arguing Smile) because in a conversation, can't remember how it came up, I basically said I think people that have belief without any sort of logic/evidence lack a certain intelligence, not necessarily academic intelligence but some form of intelligence is lacking. I also said that they are generally less intelligent than people who justify their beliefs with empirical evidence. I also said that as far as a long term partner goes I would prefer someone with the 'higher' intelligence I just described.

Is that really such a terrible thing to say? I'm being treated like the devil right now (not that it particularly bothers me). I thought it was a fair comment.

Just to add a little context they are both religious and I am not.


You do pose an interesting question. To me, the answer is two-fold.

Few people like having their beliefs challenged. I would go further and say I can think of no one who would be appreciative of having their intelligence brought into question along with a statement on the irrationality of their religious beliefs. Therefore, your question "Is that such a terrible thing to say" can be answered in the context you mentioned as "Yes". However, in another context, say when discussing the same things with people who hold similar beliefs to your own, then "No". For me, it's all about the timing, the context, the receptivity of the listener and the approach of the speaker. Since you say you were "arguing", I can only guess that the tone was more confrontational than strictly conversational. Stating what you believe in a calm, conversational manner with someone who wants to hear what you have to say is very different from telling people something they do not want to hear in the form of an argument.

Does that make sense or have I lost the plot?

Atheism is a non-prophet organisation. Cool
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03-11-2011, 01:14 PM
RE: Am I being terrible?
(03-11-2011 01:09 PM)Saimmaq Wrote:  You do pose an interesting question. To me, the answer is two-fold.

Few people like having their beliefs challenged. I would go further and say I can think of no one who would be appreciative of having their intelligence brought into question along with a statement on the irrationality of their religious beliefs. Therefore, your question "Is that such a terrible thing to say" can be answered in the context you mentioned as "Yes". However, in another context, say when discussing the same things with people who hold similar beliefs to your own, then "No". For me, it's all about the timing, the context, the receptivity of the listener and the approach of the speaker. Since you say you were "arguing", I can only guess that the tone was more confrontational than strictly conversational. Stating what you believe in a calm, conversational manner with someone who wants to hear what you have to say is very different from telling people something they do not want to hear in the form of an argument.

Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense.

The tone was more confrontational on their part. I quite like arguments so I'm quite at ease with the situation. They don't though. I just got the usual rant about how I 'believe' in Evolution/Big Bang even though they have no evidence so I'm no better than anyone else.

Sometimes my sister can be quite receptive to common sense but when she's in the mindset where she falls to that level then it's not worth the effort. I never know what mindset she's in until we already debating something though. Hence why I was happy to bring the topic up with her.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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03-11-2011, 01:22 PM
RE: Am I being terrible?
(03-11-2011 01:14 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
(03-11-2011 01:09 PM)Saimmaq Wrote:  You do pose an interesting question. To me, the answer is two-fold.

Few people like having their beliefs challenged. I would go further and say I can think of no one who would be appreciative of having their intelligence brought into question along with a statement on the irrationality of their religious beliefs. Therefore, your question "Is that such a terrible thing to say" can be answered in the context you mentioned as "Yes". However, in another context, say when discussing the same things with people who hold similar beliefs to your own, then "No". For me, it's all about the timing, the context, the receptivity of the listener and the approach of the speaker. Since you say you were "arguing", I can only guess that the tone was more confrontational than strictly conversational. Stating what you believe in a calm, conversational manner with someone who wants to hear what you have to say is very different from telling people something they do not want to hear in the form of an argument.

Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense.

The tone was more confrontational on their part. I quite like arguments so I'm quite at ease with the situation. They don't though. I just got the usual rant about how I 'believe' in Evolution/Big Bang even though they have no evidence so I'm no better than anyone else.

Sometimes my sister can be quite receptive to common sense but when she's in the mindset where she falls to that level then it's not worth the effort. I never know what mindset she's in until we already debating something though. Hence why I was happy to bring the topic up with her.

ah, timing is everything, isn't it? Sometimes, just to get a feel for where the other person stands, I will ask their view on something and let them take the lead before I launch into a thorny subject. That gives me a clearer idea of where they are on any given day on any given subject so I can adjust myself accordingly. I never want to appear rude or disrespectful. I don't think it serves a purpose. I love respectful debates where either side can walk away feeling they gained something from the experience.

Atheism is a non-prophet organisation. Cool
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03-11-2011, 01:23 PM
RE: Am I being terrible?
(03-11-2011 01:22 PM)Saimmaq Wrote:  ah, timing is everything, isn't it? Sometimes, just to get a feel for where the other person stands, I will ask their view on something and let them take the lead before I launch into a thorny subject. That gives me a clearer idea of where they are on any given day on any given subject so I can adjust myself accordingly. I never want to appear rude or disrespectful. I don't think it serves a purpose. I love respectful debates where either side can walk away feeling they gained something from the experience.

Yeah I'm like that. It's always hit and miss with my sister though. Sometimes she can speak so much sense but the rest of the time it's just pure crap.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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03-11-2011, 01:35 PM
RE: Am I being terrible?
(03-11-2011 01:23 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Yeah I'm like that. It's always hit and miss with my sister though. Sometimes she can speak so much sense but the rest of the time it's just pure crap.

I hear you. Change is difficult for some people. Letting go of old beliefs is tantamount to cutting off a limb in some people's minds. It's only on reflection that they realise they lost nothing and gained everything.

Atheism is a non-prophet organisation. Cool
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03-11-2011, 03:18 PM
 
RE: Am I being terrible?
(03-11-2011 12:55 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Is that really such a terrible thing to say?

The king calls in his fortune teller, who looks in the crystal ball, turns white and starts shaking. He says: "your Majesty, I see a terrible future for you: you will lose all your loved ones ahead of time: your parents, your siblings, your children – you will die a broken old man”.

The king is outraged and orders the man executed.

He calls in the second fortune teller, who looks in the crystal ball and smiles happily, saying “your Majesty, I see a very happy future for you: you will live such a happy long life, you will outlive your parents, your siblings, your children – you will die a very old and very happy man”.

The king says: “now, that is the kind of fortune I like to hear – give him a sack of gold!”

I think you get my drift! Big Grin
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03-11-2011, 03:19 PM
RE: Am I being terrible?
You're getting shit for that!? HA! That's amusing. If you are geeting shit for such a small comment then your family would arrange a mob to kill me.

No you're not being a dick. You are stating a perfectly resonable viewpoint and if they can't understand such a simplistic thing then they fit into the catagory of people you've described. It's that simple. and if you keep thinking about it just remember that you're not even remotely close to being as bad as me and take comfort in that.

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03-11-2011, 03:25 PM
RE: Am I being terrible?
Not terrible - just rude, conceited and short-sighted. Maybe you'll outgrow it.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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03-11-2011, 05:04 PM
RE: Am I being terrible?
(03-11-2011 12:55 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Long story so I'll shorten it down.

I've just been arguing with my mum and sister (I like arguing Smile) because in a conversation, can't remember how it came up, I basically said I think people that have belief without any sort of logic/evidence lack a certain intelligence, not necessarily academic intelligence but some form of intelligence is lacking. I also said that they are generally less intelligent than people who justify their beliefs with empirical evidence. I also said that as far as a long term partner goes I would prefer someone with the 'higher' intelligence I just described.

Is that really such a terrible thing to say? I'm being treated like the devil right now (not that it particularly bothers me). I thought it was a fair comment.

Just to add a little context they are both religious and I am not.

I think it's a really limited view of people. Religious people can be very intelligent but simply unwilling to accept alternative viewpoints on this one subject. I don't know exactly what your mom and sister are saying, so I won't say I agree with them- but I will say that I disagree with you.

What about people who become willing to accept new information into their belief equation and then changed their mind. Did they gain in intelligence? Are they still unintelligent? Were they always intelligent but suppressed their intelligence? I think strictly saying religious people are less intelligent is way oversimplifying things and is harmful to constructive discussion.
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