Am I the only atheist opposed to same-sex marriage?
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05-01-2014, 04:42 PM
RE: Am I the only atheist opposed to same-sex marriage?
(05-01-2014 04:26 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  
(05-01-2014 12:50 PM)veitstoss Wrote:  Allow me to state my view.

Being non-religious, I don't oppose same-sex marriage from a church or 'moral' point of view. I don't accept that the church or any other faith 'owns' the 'sacrament' of marriage. Rather, I oppose it from a socio-biological point of view.

Stripped down to its bare essentials, a marriage certificate is a legal document. It seems to me that, by far, the principal reason for marriage as a legal institution is to sanction the procreation of children - i.e the continuation of the human species.

The vast majority of studies I've read suggest that, GENERALLY speaking, children who are product of married parents tend to make more rounded citizens than those whose parents are separated/divorced, in terms of how long they remain in education, salary level, likelihood of spending time in prison etc. Therefore, couples who intend to marry in order to establish a stable foundation for the production of children should be incentivised by the state to do so (tax/inheritance benefits). It's in society's interests.

This ties in with the time-honoured definition of marriage being a union between a man and a woman, essentially because they represent the two components required for sexual reproduction. A same-sex couple represents one component only. In terms of entitlement to legally marry, this is not the same as a hetero couple who choose not to have children or are unable to do so for some physiological reason. Put simply, a same-sex couple has zero potential for producing a family therefore has no legal justification for marrying. Acquiring children by arranging for someone outside the relationship to provide the opposite sexual component required, so that one partner becomes a biological parent and the other is entitled to legally adopt the child, is a practice I would question the ethics of. It seems to wilfully deny a child its other biological parent.

I am not opposed to same-sex relationships per se but I draw the line at marriage. In my view, that can only ever be defined as a union between a man and a woman. It simply isn't a discrimination or equalities issue.

So it's an over elaborate justification for controlling who gets to live in a legally/financially secure relationship based on your subjective opinion. Not all hets want or have kids.Hets and gays who can't have kids are prime candidates for adopting. There's a lot of children who would benefit from that.

I like that word, hets, I'll steal it and use it from now on Rolleyes

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05-01-2014, 04:45 PM
RE: Am I the only atheist opposed to same-sex marriage?
(05-01-2014 04:42 PM)nach_in Wrote:  
(05-01-2014 04:26 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  So it's an over elaborate justification for controlling who gets to live in a legally/financially secure relationship based on your subjective opinion. Not all hets want or have kids.Hets and gays who can't have kids are prime candidates for adopting. There's a lot of children who would benefit from that.

I like that word, hets, I'll steal it and use it from now on Rolleyes

Took me a second to figure it out, at first I thought it was a typo till it was used again.

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05-01-2014, 05:06 PM
RE: Am I the only atheist opposed to same-sex marriage?
So....

Still no answer to my questions of prejudice huh?Huh

Alrighty then. Bet it will be damned hard to find a group of non-believers who are also prejudiced to talk to online.Blink

good luck with that.
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05-01-2014, 06:51 PM
RE: Am I the only atheist opposed to same-sex marriage?
Viet - are you saying that homosexuality is wrong in tandem with the universalizability argument? Meaning that if everyone were to be homosexual, that society would cease to exist, therefore we should only reward those unions for which children can result?

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05-01-2014, 08:46 PM
Rainbow RE: Am I the only atheist opposed to same-sex marriage?
I hate this argument. Let them get married and do like the rest if us do... just live our lives. In no way is my marriage affected by the marriage of two other people.

Also, as part of an infertile couple, I have always found this argument offensive. It's putting up some wacko requirement that we can't fulfill - and wish we could.
A friend of mine was at a party recently where she was told she "doesn't have a family" because they "don't have kids" (never mind their year of trying and recent miscarriage). Why do people have to worry about the definition of marriage or family? Believe me, everyone makes it their own. Let's just not try to have everyone else's relationships fit into some tiny little box so "the world makes perfect sense."

Committed couples deserve the same access to the social recognition, tax and legal benefits of marriage.
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05-01-2014, 09:04 PM
RE: Am I the only atheist opposed to same-sex marriage?
(05-01-2014 08:46 PM)aquaquilter Wrote:  I hate this argument. Let them get married and do like the rest if us do... just live our lives. In no way is my marriage affected by the marriage of two other people.

Also, as part of an infertile couple, I have always found this argument offensive. It's putting up some wacko requirement that we can't fulfill - and wish we could.
A friend of mine was at a party recently where she was told she "doesn't have a family" because they "don't have kids" (never mind their year of trying and recent miscarriage). Why do people have to worry about the definition of marriage or family? Believe me, everyone makes it their own. Let's just not try to have everyone else's relationships fit into some tiny little box so "the world makes perfect sense."

Committed couples deserve the same access to the social recognition, tax and legal benefits of marriage.

I definitely agree with you! I was so proud of my daughter the other day when we went to a family gathering. Two uncles were discussing the horrors of gay marriage *gasp*, and she interrupted to say, "hey guys I just want to tell you that all families are different and that's okay". I almost cried haha.

I also get to hear, "but don't you want to have a family?", whenever I tell people that I may never remarry. It's very offensive. We are a family. I never understand why people think it's okay to discount someone else's family just because it doesn't match their ideas of what a family should be.
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05-01-2014, 09:31 PM
Re: RE: Am I the only atheist opposed to same-sex marriage?
(05-01-2014 12:50 PM)veitstoss Wrote:  Allow me to state my view.

Being non-religious, I don't oppose same-sex marriage from a church or 'moral' point of view. I don't accept that the church or any other faith 'owns' the 'sacrament' of marriage. Rather, I oppose it from a socio-biological point of view.

Stripped down to its bare essentials, a marriage certificate is a legal document. It seems to me that, by far, the principal reason for marriage as a legal institution is to sanction the procreation of children - i.e the continuation of the human species.
This is as far as I got before concluding you're an idiot with no fucking idea what you are going on about. Marriage has nothing to do with procreation. Millions of married couples never have children together, and millions of couples who aren't married have children. The "principal reason" for marriage was never about children. It was about ownership of women. Children only came into the thing because all children also had to be owned by a man (women couldn't own anyone, duh!); and for that to happen a man had to be married to the mother. That's why to this day, a husband has rights to any child his wife gives birth to regardless of whether or not he is the biological father.

Now, today marriage isn't generally about ownership of women (despite the elements of marriage and traditional weddings which seem to suggest otherwise). No. In the 21st century, the principal reason for marriage is love. Couples who are in love get married to celebrate their desire to be together for the rest of their lives, along with their friends and families.

But even if people did get married to have kids, same-sex couples are able to have children with the help of a surrogate or a sperm donor, or by adopting. So even if your bullshit was correct, that wouldn't be an argument against same-sex marriage anyway.
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05-01-2014, 09:43 PM
RE: Am I the only atheist opposed to same-sex marriage?
(05-01-2014 02:14 PM)Jeremy C Wrote:  Science has shown that, though very dangerous and potentially fatal, a male could carry a fetus to term much the same way women who have ectopic or extrauterine pregnancies.

Can you provide a citation for at least one paper that demonstrates this to be true?
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05-01-2014, 10:00 PM
RE: Am I the only atheist opposed to same-sex marriage?
(05-01-2014 09:43 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(05-01-2014 02:14 PM)Jeremy C Wrote:  Science has shown that, though very dangerous and potentially fatal, a male could carry a fetus to term much the same way women who have ectopic or extrauterine pregnancies.

Can you provide a citation for at least one paper that demonstrates this to be true?

This is the only "evidence" I could find.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_pregnancy
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06-01-2014, 03:23 AM
RE: Am I the only atheist opposed to same-sex marriage?
(05-01-2014 04:42 PM)nach_in Wrote:  
(05-01-2014 04:26 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  So it's an over elaborate justification for controlling who gets to live in a legally/financially secure relationship based on your subjective opinion. Not all hets want or have kids.Hets and gays who can't have kids are prime candidates for adopting. There's a lot of children who would benefit from that.

I like that word, hets, I'll steal it and use it from now on Rolleyes

You're welcome! Big Grin

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