Poll: Do christian apologetics avoid the real questions in debate?
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Am I the only one frustrated with how Theist debate?
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10-11-2014, 01:18 PM
RE: Am I the only one frustrated with how Theist debate?
(10-11-2014 08:22 AM)Colourcraze Wrote:  Why do so many people have trouble pluralizing 'theist' and 'atheist'?

Atheist = atheists

Theist = shitheads


Not so hard.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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10-11-2014, 02:14 PM
RE: Am I the only one frustrated with how Theist debate?
(10-11-2014 01:09 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  I won't debate one-on-one anymore. Most people see what they want to see or hear what they want to hear. Only those who have been seriously hurt or affected or annoyed by what they believe will seek out the truth or at the very least alternatives. Like Robby said, until you can get the person to put their allegiance aside, they will never hear you with an open mind.

I WILL debate in public because it's not the debater I'm trying to help/educate; I'm hoping to reach those witnessing the exchange. I love the comment section of FB for this very reason. But, if I somehow open the eyes of the debater then that's a bonus.

In your case, what will ultimately happen, as with most ignorant theist debaters, is they will fall back on faith, as in "I have faith," which always is a big frustration. They will feel that's their ace in the hole and that it can't be questioned or refuted. It's not a legitimate debate in front of a paid audience, so they won't understand the concept of having legitimate arguments and they won't feel the pressure of a qualified moderator insisting on an answer of substance.

But, in all fairness, Willhopp, "i have faith" IS their failsafe. For belief is founded on faith and theres no real argument to that.
It simply is what it is no matter who likes or hates it.
Doesn't have to make logical sense.
Actually, education, reality, realism, facts or truths are all the opposite of faith.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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10-11-2014, 02:26 PM
RE: Am I the only one frustrated with how Theist debate?
(10-11-2014 02:14 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(10-11-2014 01:09 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  I won't debate one-on-one anymore. Most people see what they want to see or hear what they want to hear. Only those who have been seriously hurt or affected or annoyed by what they believe will seek out the truth or at the very least alternatives. Like Robby said, until you can get the person to put their allegiance aside, they will never hear you with an open mind.

I WILL debate in public because it's not the debater I'm trying to help/educate; I'm hoping to reach those witnessing the exchange. I love the comment section of FB for this very reason. But, if I somehow open the eyes of the debater then that's a bonus.

In your case, what will ultimately happen, as with most ignorant theist debaters, is they will fall back on faith, as in "I have faith," which always is a big frustration. They will feel that's their ace in the hole and that it can't be questioned or refuted. It's not a legitimate debate in front of a paid audience, so they won't understand the concept of having legitimate arguments and they won't feel the pressure of a qualified moderator insisting on an answer of substance.

But, in all fairness, Willhopp, "i have faith" IS their failsafe. For belief is founded on faith and theres no real argument to that.
It simply is what it is no matter who likes or hates it.
Doesn't have to make logical sense.
Actually, education, reality, realism, facts or truths are all the opposite of faith.

Yep, that's essentially what I was saying, that they will give it the ol' Christian college try and defend with "facts" but in the end they will realize they aren't smart enough or educated enough to play by rational rules and their fail-safe play is faith.

If you truly believe there is no arguing against faith then why have any conversation ever regarding religion or non-religion? If we all know they ultimately will fall back on faith, and it's simultaneously indefensible and impenetrable, then we are just as foolish for discussing anything with them in a one-on-one private situation. And that gets back to my original point, that I will only debate in public settings so the fringe will hear opposing views.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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11-11-2014, 07:14 AM
RE: Am I the only one frustrated with how Theist debate?
(10-11-2014 02:26 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(10-11-2014 02:14 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  But, in all fairness, Willhopp, "i have faith" IS their failsafe. For belief is founded on faith and theres no real argument to that.
It simply is what it is no matter who likes or hates it.
Doesn't have to make logical sense.
Actually, education, reality, realism, facts or truths are all the opposite of faith.

Yep, that's essentially what I was saying, that they will give it the ol' Christian college try and defend with "facts" but in the end they will realize they aren't smart enough or educated enough to play by rational rules and their fail-safe play is faith.

If you truly believe there is no arguing against faith then why have any conversation ever regarding religion or non-religion? If we all know they ultimately will fall back on faith, and it's simultaneously indefensible and impenetrable, then we are just as foolish for discussing anything with them in a one-on-one private situation. And that gets back to my original point, that I will only debate in public settings so the fringe will hear opposing views.

I have noticed this many times when you talk to a christian and express your doubts. It starts off with

"Well, you just don't understand it, you need to study and think about it. Read books x,y,z they will answer your questions. Also read the bible."

You: "I've read those books, and the bible, and now I'm pretty sure it's all bullshit."

Them: "See, you're trying to think about it too much! You just have to have faith. Walk by faith, not by sight."

You: No

Remember, just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true. Yes, even if you have faith.
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11-11-2014, 07:19 AM
RE: Am I the only one frustrated with how Theist debate?
(11-11-2014 07:14 AM)microterf Wrote:  
(10-11-2014 02:26 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Yep, that's essentially what I was saying, that they will give it the ol' Christian college try and defend with "facts" but in the end they will realize they aren't smart enough or educated enough to play by rational rules and their fail-safe play is faith.

If you truly believe there is no arguing against faith then why have any conversation ever regarding religion or non-religion? If we all know they ultimately will fall back on faith, and it's simultaneously indefensible and impenetrable, then we are just as foolish for discussing anything with them in a one-on-one private situation. And that gets back to my original point, that I will only debate in public settings so the fringe will hear opposing views.


Them: "See, you're trying to think about it too much! You just have to have faith. Walk by faith, not by sight."

Me: "No thanks. If you want to go to a cliff and walk around blindfolded so you can walk by faith alone, that's your choice, but I'd much rather keep my eyes open and free of blinders."

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11-11-2014, 08:13 AM
RE: Am I the only one frustrated with how Theist debate?
(08-11-2014 08:10 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(08-11-2014 08:00 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Daniel is a complete fabrication, click here:

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid674874

I still wonder why you don't have your own website

NO skillz, no time Tongue

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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11-11-2014, 09:15 AM
RE: Am I the only one frustrated with how Theist debate?
(11-11-2014 08:13 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(08-11-2014 08:10 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  I still wonder why you don't have your own website

NO skillz, no time Tongue

Get skills, get somebody else to do it.

[Image: Guilmon-41189.gif] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOW_Ioi2wtuPa88FvBmnBgQ my youtube
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11-11-2014, 09:18 AM
RE: Am I the only one frustrated with how Theist debate?
Am I the only one who was fooled by the poll question not being the thread title question, therefore causing their vote to seem janky?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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11-11-2014, 10:52 AM
RE: Am I the only one frustrated with how Theist debate?
(08-11-2014 04:59 PM)microterf Wrote:  After watching a couple hundred hours of debates over the last 2 years, I have noticed something that has really made me mad. They never debate based on what they sell.

This last week I listened to a pastor talk about the story of the fiery furnace (Daniel 3:14-29) where 3 guys were thrown into a furnace because they refused to believe in the Kings god. They were unharmed because they were protected by god. He then preached how amazing this was, and that he would do the same thing for any of the believers because of the protection of the holy spirit. I did notice however that there was no demonstration. He did not climb into a furnace to show us how this worked.

In my opinion they sell christianity to people because of the divine power that it holds, but when they debate, they never defend that. They always debate that you could get your moral guidance from the bible. I would like to see the issue be pushed by atheists that they really should show some proof of the divine intervention, or be forced to admit that it doesn't happen, and that religion is more of a comforting mechanism than anything else, and should be treated as such.

A good salesman creates a need, then sells you the cure.

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11-11-2014, 10:53 AM
RE: Am I the only one frustrated with how Theist debate?
(11-11-2014 08:13 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(08-11-2014 08:10 PM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  I still wonder why you don't have your own website

NO skillz, no time Tongue

I can help with that if you want.

Atir aissom atir imon
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