Ambushed and alone
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13-03-2012, 09:37 AM (This post was last modified: 13-03-2012 09:42 AM by JLMomma.)
RE: Ambushed and alone
I know that they are doing it because they love me. That's why it hurts. If they were doing in a "holier than thou" sort of way I don't think it would effect me as much. I know they genuinely believe that I'm going to burn in hell. There was a time that I worried for people I loved too.

You are right that I just need to accept that this is the way they are. I know that in my head. I just need to grow some thicker skin and stop thinking about what they think of me.

I tried telling them that if god is real then he made me. He made my mind work the way it does and he made the earth look the way it does. If he's good and he loves me like you say he will know I tried to believe but wasn't capable. It didn't seem too comforting at the time but they didn't have anything to say about it and maybe they will think about it a bit.

I did read the book. It was classic apologetics. It proved that christianity was known in the first century and that's about it except for some conversion stories at the end.

There are family members that I can be more open with and can joke about it with but my mother especially is in deep. She's a new earth creationist. She believes the devil planted dinosaur bones and the spiritual war is going on invisibly around us. My childhood was a little frightening but I don't blame my parents they are even more effected by their beliefs than I am. They still live in that giant mind fuck.

Egor-

I'm not sure what about my post made you think that I wanted to leave or escape my family. They are the most important thing in my life. I was just hurt by my husbands lack of emotional support and listening skills and probably shouldn't have even been in the post. I was on a rant and it was part of the hurt I was feeling in the moment so slipped into the post. I guess it was the alone part because I felt a lack of support.

You're right that I don't give two shits about god because I don't think he exists. I want to find a way to make the awkwardness between me and my parents go away or at least not overshadow the enjoyment I used to feel in their company before they knew for sure that I didn't believe in god and stared acting different.

You're also right that I might still be a christian right now if my parents hadn't been so strict with their adherence to the word of god. But they were the way they were and am the way I am. I wanted truth and what I found didn't point to the likelihood that there's a god.
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13-03-2012, 09:40 AM
RE: Ambushed and alone
(12-03-2012 07:31 AM)JLMomma Wrote:  dh- history is stupid anyways it's not like you can prove Caesar existed

Then how the fuck do they know that "Jesus" existed then?
The only people that could "prove that he existed" are loooooooooooong gone.

"You don't disappoint me.... I think your much braver than you may believe."
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13-03-2012, 09:55 AM
RE: Ambushed and alone
(13-03-2012 09:40 AM)xLegendofLink096x Wrote:  
(12-03-2012 07:31 AM)JLMomma Wrote:  dh- history is stupid anyways it's not like you can prove Caesar existed

Then how the fuck do they know that "Jesus" existed then?
The only people that could "prove that he existed" are loooooooooooong gone.

Awwwwwwwww yeah! xLeg for the win! To the point, nailed it completely. Well said.
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13-03-2012, 10:13 AM
 
RE: Ambushed and alone
(13-03-2012 03:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(13-03-2012 02:40 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(13-03-2012 01:36 AM)morondog Wrote:  Egor...

Um... ja... I... did you *read* her post? It was about people respecting her freedom to choose. Coming in with such certainty, saying "you know God exists, you're just lying to yourself"... it's kinda rude. What do you know of what she thinks? 'Try to stop sinning' ??? Please man. If try to stop sinning means try to do your best what you think is right then all of us already try to do that...

I told her what she needs to hear. I don't care if you think it's rude. I don't care if she thinks it's rude. She posted here to get input. That's my input, and it's the truth of the situation.

And you know what? Nowhere did I write "You know God exists, you're just lying to yourself."

I think you misquoting me to make a strawman case is more than rude. I think it's wrong. And you know what it really says when you do that? That your response to me isn't justified. That's why you have to make stuff up in order to try to justify it. You wanted to call me rude, but I wasn't being rude, not even in your estimation. Since what you are calling rude was never written in my reply, then ipso facto, I am not being rude.

I apologise. I didn't read your post that carefully. You did in fact never say those words. However it was not my intention to be rude to you myself, and I still contend that the thrust of your post has missed the point of the OP.

Apology accepted. And I must say, I'm impressed. I think you're the only other person in the world that would actually admit a mistake and apologize for it. And you're completely right, my response to her was off topic.
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13-03-2012, 10:36 AM
RE: Ambushed and alone
(13-03-2012 10:13 AM)Egor Wrote:  Apology accepted. And I must say, I'm impressed. I think you're the only other person in the world that would actually admit a mistake and apologize for it. And you're completely right, my response to her was off topic.

... There are lots Tongue Won't say it's easy, climbing down off my high horse though.
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13-03-2012, 10:40 AM
 
RE: Ambushed and alone
(13-03-2012 03:21 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I can't let this go by without comment!

I strongly object to your patronising, presumptuous and didactic tone.

You’ll get used to it.

Quote:Have you even read this lady's story? How dare you presume to preach to her after she's admitted being thoroughly sick of having god shoved down her throat?

Because I’m trying to save her eternal life. That’s what I do. I try to save atheists from hell.

Quote:Re..."you have a problem because God does exist." No, buddy, YOU have the problem because you imagine your god exists.

Even worse for you, I imagine your God exists as well.

Quote:Re..."But you do have to acknowledge God, the fact that you’ve sinned and fallen short of His expectations, and you have to want to live your life as much like Christ as you reasonably can. That’s it." Wrong again, junior. This is YOUR belief system, not hers.

It’s everyone’s belief system. Some people deny it. Some people hide from it, whatever. Atheism is for animals; the conversion of the human spirit into the spirit of Christ is what this life is for, all its sufferings, all it’s lessons, all it’s wonders and revelations.

[/quote]There's no point quoting the bible to justify your beliefs and prejudices, because no one around here, including her, believes in the bible. Surely even you can understand that.
Quote:I didn’t quote the Bible; I quoted The Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ. Did you know speaking for other people is a defense mechanism? It shows you’re not comfortable with your own assertions. It shows a lack of confidence in what you believe.

[quote]Re "That is what’s required." Your agenda is clearly all about control, not about her welfare. That is inexcusable.

I have no desire to control anyone. I’m telling her what’s required, and it’s required of you to.

Quote:Re "So forget your parents." How dare you presume to tell her this!

Let’s see…oh, I know…it’s a public forum where people put in their opinions on what other people have said.

Quote:Re "try to stop sinning and you'll be fine. Then go out and do what you were meant to do. Do you have any idea what that might be?" You really are a jerk! What makes you think she has no direction in life? She's given up on your imaginary friend and you don't like the fact because it challenges your simplistic view of the world.

Ladies and gentleman, here we have a classic example of how the typical Christian church goes about its business...

1. They search out people who are looking for answers and therefore a little vulnerable.

2. They tell people they are worthy and special, yet then label them as sinners and directionless and proceed to make them feel small and inferior. They imply they have all the answers and have a wonderful life, thereby making themselves feel superior.

3. They propose flawed simplistic solutions to complex problems and use their own interpretations of biblical passages to justify their prejudices. Some of these solutions are profoundly immoral ( eg. "forget your parents" ).

4. Despite his denials, Egor's next move will inevitably be an invite to HIS church and an expectation of a financial contribution.

Something tells me you’re not too familiar with me.

And I'm not too familiar with you, either. What medical school did you attend. You do say on your blog that you're a "doctor." You never actually say what kind though. Are you internal medicine, family practice, what? You must have an undergraduate degree as well, is that in theology or what?
(13-03-2012 09:37 AM)JLMomma Wrote:  Egor-

I'm not sure what about my post made you think that I wanted to leave or escape my family. They are the most important thing in my life. I was just hurt by my husbands lack of emotional support and listening skills and probably shouldn't have even been in the post. I was on a rant and it was part of the hurt I was feeling in the moment so slipped into the post. I guess it was the alone part because I felt a lack of support.

Well, if you're going to be an atheist, you're going to have to get used to this one simple fact about atheism. No one in the world trusts them. No matter how they try to spin their lack of faith, it always comes across as an anti-social mindset. And unfortunately, this doesn't change the more you know about it. The more you read, the more you find people like David Barash who wrote "Natural Selections" and advocates interbreeding humans with chimpanzees, presumably to get rid of our tendency towards religion.

Atheism is a hopeless dead end. If it is true, it leaves more mystery in the world than a rational mind can deal with, since it leaves every question of "why" unanswered. So, the question is, "Why do you want to be an atheist?" Sounds to me like you want independence from your family, or you want to strike back at them, or you just see their brand of religion as absolutely nuts. You want to be your own person and you want to be respected and supported in that.

But that's the thing about being "your own person" it implies that no one is going to respect or support that. The only person who wants that as much as you is God. Not God of Pentacostalism, not God of any other religion, God and you. But you are casting aside the only person who wants you to be you as much as you do.

You say you hope God will respect that about you. That you will deny God's existence and role in your life, and in the end he will respect that. That's kind of like saying to your husband, "If you love and respect me, you will let me walk away and act like I never knew you." There may be some men who would put up with that but I don't think God is one of them. I always imagine He's a bit more like Henry the VIII.

Quote:You're right that I don't give two shits about god because I don't think he exists.

Oh well. Hell needs another charcoal, I guess. Sorry, but what else is there to say? You'll be despised in this world and tortured in the next. That's how it works, and that seems to be what you want.

Quote: I want to find a way to make the awkwardness between me and my parents go away or at least not overshadow the enjoyment I used to feel in their company before they knew for sure that I didn't believe in god and stared acting different.

You abandoned them. You took everything they tried to do with you as a child and tossed it in the garbage. You spit on everything that they are. You have become what is most despicable to them in this carcass of a world. So, excuse me now, what was it you want from them? Oh, right, for there to be no awkwardness.

Quote:You're also right that I might still be a christian right now if my parents hadn't been so strict with their adherence to the word of god. But they were the way they were and am the way I am. I wanted truth and what I found didn't point to the likelihood that there's a god.

You wanted to find no God because you wanted them to be wrong. You can be whatever religion you want; you don't have to be a Christian. You can be no religion and still feel close to God and Christ.

But if you choose to be an atheist, then you will pay the price of an atheist. Just remember people in general don't trust atheists because they think of them as immoral. They think they must be so involved in some kind of sin that they can't face the fact of God watching them. They see them as anti-social and anarchistic. They will take tongues-talking Pentacostals any day of the week and twice on Sunday rather than be in the company of an atheist.

And I don't think you're doing yourself justice until you go over and spend some time at the Raving Atheist forum. There you get to see what atheists eventually devolve into. But maybe that's what you're looking for. Who knows?
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13-03-2012, 11:46 AM
RE: Ambushed and alone
Ugh... Egor!

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13-03-2012, 12:10 PM
RE: Ambushed and alone
(12-03-2012 07:31 AM)JLMomma Wrote:  My family is very devout Pentecostal Christian. About a year ago, I admitted to my mom that I didn't believe in god at all. I didn't even mean to. We were having a conversation and my aunt asked me straight up. For so long my mother and I have had and unspoken "don't ask don't tell" kind of thing going on that it took me off guard. I'm a terrible lair especially when caught off guard so I just said it.

Since then I've felt more free to slowly start sharing my support of the atheist community by liking things on facebook and even occasionally posting. I've come to believe that it's important since there could be other people in my family hurting the way I did and I want them to know they aren't alone or weird or awful. My parents have remained silent through this time but the tension has been building and I knew it was a matter of time before we'd have to discuss it and they'd have to push for conversion.

Yesterday I went to my parent's place for lunch. When I got there I had just put my salad on the counter when my mom pulls out this book, Evidence That Demands a Verdict, by Josh McDowell. They tell me that this guy was an atheist and now he loves jesus and that if I just read this book it will prove it. As if the secret evidence that proves the bible is hidden in this 1970's book. I promise to read it anyways and hope to move on but no such luck.

The talk continued for like an hour even though I continually tried to change the topic. I'm given a few opportunities to defended my stance occasionally but pretty much just got preached at the entire time. If 18 years of forced indoctrination didn't do the trick what else can be said? I finally got out of it when my outraged father said "where in the bible does it say THAT?!?" and I said "I'm not sure I didn't write up a report. I thought I was coming for lunch." My oldest brother showed up with his family right then and suddenly they snapped out of it. She said "Yes, your right, you did come for lunch" and pretended nothing happened.

CRAZINESS!!!

The whole incident did rattle me though. Mostly it just brought to light a lot of the issues that cause me to feel anger towards religion and christianity to begin with. It is made in such a way that it doesn't allow them to agree to disagree. They either have to distain or pity those who disagree.

It hurts me that I will be nothing but a disappointment and their biggest regret because I can't believe what they do. No matter what I achieve, how great a person I become, my lack of belief will over shadow that in their minds.

It also makes me so mad that they can just randomly attack something I have took so much time and energy to figure out. Just right out mock it and say it's stupid with no support to the claim. Then when I calmly try to explain what why I believe it they accuse me of being angry or crossing lines and being offensive before I can even get two sentences in.

I tried to vent all of this to my husband (non practicing christian) when we got home last night but he doesn't understand at all. He doesn't get why I even care what other people think. If I could stop caring I would! Then he does the exact thing that I said upsets me.

dh- history is stupid anyways it's not like you can prove Caesar existed
me- Of course you can!
dh- no you can't. he's dead. you'll never meet him.
me- There's ways to tell if someone or something existed like eye witnesses and...
dh- why are you getting so angry?
me- You are kidding right?

I just walked away. Not two minutes after saying that this very thing pisses me off he does it! WHAT?!?!

I'm so sick of this. I'm 29 years old with a family of my own. Do I really just have to pretend to agree with everyone in my life so that I don't have to be accused of being angry and combative and rebellious? When can I just be honest and be me? I feel so very alone.

Not at all unique. I come from Mormon/Catholic background. They dog me and my family about it for ages, and with my father being in the military, YEESH. People try to change our minds all the time. You are not alone, for we are here! Atheists, unite!

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13-03-2012, 01:09 PM
RE: Ambushed and alone
Egor,
Fortunately, I live in Canada and no one here really cares about religion except for the members of churches like the one I was raised in and some people over 60. They are pretty ease to spot and avoid. If someone churchy does ask, I tell them I was raised Pentecostal and that usually scares them off.

I'm not hated in my community and I wouldn't be afraid to tell anyone that I think that God is about as real as Santa. No one would reject me or persecute me in any way. In fact, I do know people who think the same way as I do. They just can't really relate to what I'm going through because they don't associate with people like my family.

I do see their brand of religion as absolutely nuts. Why draw the line at speaking in tongues? I draw my line at where you have to believe something on Faith. Every time I've relied solely on an emotion to make a decision it's been a mistake. when I plan thoughtfully and make decisions based on facts it usually turns out well.

I don't choose to be an atheist. It's just a label for not thinking god exists. I did try other religions. I'm just seeking truth. It hasn't led me toward the bible or any god.

If misogynistic, Henry the VIII, ass hole god exists I'm fucked either way. I'm totally guilty of apostasy for which there is no forgiveness. Fear has never been a good motivator for me.
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13-03-2012, 03:02 PM
 
RE: Ambushed and alone
(13-03-2012 01:09 PM)JLMomma Wrote:  Egor,
Fortunately, I live in Canada and no one here really cares about religion except for the members of churches like the one I was raised in and some people over 60. They are pretty ease to spot and avoid. If someone churchy does ask, I tell them I was raised Pentecostal and that usually scares them off.

I'm not hated in my community and I wouldn't be afraid to tell anyone that I think that God is about as real as Santa. No one would reject me or persecute me in any way. In fact, I do know people who think the same way as I do. They just can't really relate to what I'm going through because they don't associate with people like my family.

I do see their brand of religion as absolutely nuts. Why draw the line at speaking in tongues? I draw my line at where you have to believe something on Faith. Every time I've relied solely on an emotion to make a decision it's been a mistake. when I plan thoughtfully and make decisions based on facts it usually turns out well.

I don't choose to be an atheist. It's just a label for not thinking god exists. I did try other religions. I'm just seeking truth. It hasn't led me toward the bible or any god.

If misogynistic, Henry the VIII, ass hole god exists I'm fucked either way. I'm totally guilty of apostasy for which there is no forgiveness. Fear has never been a good motivator for me.

Fine. Then don't come bitching about why your family can't understand you and won't support you in your decision to piss on their religion and their entire way of life. You have your separation from them. You have your disobedience to them. You have your revenge or whatever else you're looking for. You have your superiority.

Now you're wearing the big girl pants and your entire country applauds you. Great. At the end of the day, however, atheism is going to get you nowhere. It's an absolute losers game. Look at Christopher Hitchens. Alcoholic to the end.

And don't give me this shit you don't choose to be an atheist. It's the one freewill decision you own outright. It's all on you, and it's all we're about down here on planet earth. It's our only test.

But like I said, if you won't be what God created you for, you can always supply some fuel for hell. You do realize that's the consequence if you're wrong, right?
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