America, Fuck Yeah!
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15-08-2012, 12:47 PM
Patriotism, Fuck No!
I love Canada and the U.S. - I have lived in each one. But I love them for what they have and are capable of, and not unconditionally.

Patriotism is a lot like religion; it can be a motivation for good, but can tip over into horror. My strongest positive feelings for my countries relate to freedom and opportunity, both of which seem to be slipping away, partly due to the uber-patriots.

I could easily come to love other countries if I experienced them. Except France, of course.Dodgy

I have no special regard for Satan; but I can at least claim that I have no prejudice against him. It may even be that I lean a little his way, on account of his not having a fair show. All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side.
We have none but evidence for the prosecution and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French.
- Mark Twain

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-08-2012, 01:20 PM
America, Fuck Yeah!
(15-08-2012 12:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  I love Canada and the U.S. - I have lived in each one. But I love them for what they have and are capable of, and not unconditionally.

Patriotism is a lot like religion; it can be a motivation for good, but can tip over into horror. My strongest positive feelings for my countries relate to freedom and opportunity, both of which seem to be slipping away, partly due to the uber-patriots.

I could easily come to love other countries if I experienced them. Except France, of course.Dodgy

I have no special regard for Satan; but I can at least claim that I have no prejudice against him. It may even be that I lean a little his way, on account of his not having a fair show. All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side.
We have none but evidence for the prosecution and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French.
- Mark Twain

I would live in Vancouver if they would have me.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of Calvinism is that good Atheists do nothing." ~Eric Oh My
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15-08-2012, 01:25 PM
RE: America, Fuck Yeah!
(15-08-2012 01:20 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(15-08-2012 12:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  I love Canada and the U.S. - I have lived in each one. But I love them for what they have and are capable of, and not unconditionally.

Patriotism is a lot like religion; it can be a motivation for good, but can tip over into horror. My strongest positive feelings for my countries relate to freedom and opportunity, both of which seem to be slipping away, partly due to the uber-patriots.

I could easily come to love other countries if I experienced them. Except France, of course.Dodgy

I have no special regard for Satan; but I can at least claim that I have no prejudice against him. It may even be that I lean a little his way, on account of his not having a fair show. All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side.
We have none but evidence for the prosecution and yet we have rendered the verdict. To my mind, this is irregular. It is un-English. It is un-American; it is French.
- Mark Twain

I would live in Vancouver if they would have me.

Marry a Canadian. Yes


No, not me. No

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-08-2012, 01:35 PM
RE: America, Fuck Yeah!
(15-08-2012 09:59 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(15-08-2012 09:45 AM)Jeff Wrote:  Vosur, your discomfort with Patriotism is likely more due to your nation's past history than it is to the actual feeling of Patriotism. You might find this article insightful http://www.spiegel.de/international/germ...11948.html

I feel the same way, and I am American.

That's too bad, Logica, I feel sorry for you. Patriotism and pride for one's country is a good thing.
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15-08-2012, 01:43 PM
RE: America, Fuck Yeah!
(15-08-2012 10:01 AM)Red Celt Wrote:  Congratulations on finding an eccentric person... and on the internet, of all places.

....that directly contradicts your point...how inconvenient for you

(15-08-2012 10:01 AM)Red Celt Wrote:  We don't have it printed on our money.

Yeah, sorry to have facts that get in the way of your tantrum but our money says "In God We Trust", not "God Bless America".

(15-08-2012 10:01 AM)Red Celt Wrote:  Crash... and... burn. Cool

Yes you did
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15-08-2012, 01:49 PM
RE: America, Fuck Yeah!
(15-08-2012 01:43 PM)Jeff Wrote:  
(15-08-2012 10:01 AM)Red Celt Wrote:  Congratulations on finding an eccentric person... and on the internet, of all places.

....that directly contradicts your point...how inconvenient for you

Not even remotely inconvenient. It isn't a common phrase in Scotland. I've never heard anyone say it... ever... in my 43 years on this planet. You found someone who did. Well done. Google is your friend. "God Bless America", on the other hand... oh, now, that's common and you can't deny it (with a straight face).

(15-08-2012 01:43 PM)Jeff Wrote:  Yeah, sorry to have facts that get in the way of your tantrum but our money says "In God We Trust", not "God Bless America".

Note to self: Jeff thinks that someone who disagrees with him is (for some reason) having a tantrum.

Note to self: Jeff's ego doesn't allow him to lose an argument with any grace.

(15-08-2012 01:43 PM)Jeff Wrote:  
(15-08-2012 10:01 AM)Red Celt Wrote:  Crash... and... burn. Cool

Yes you did

That's right up there with "I know you are, but what am I" in the lexicon of childish debate. But, y'know, whatever floats ya boat.
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15-08-2012, 01:51 PM
RE: America, Fuck Yeah!
(15-08-2012 10:14 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Because I was born in Germany, I can't criticize patriotism without being accused of actually feeling guilty for the history of the country I was born in, making my criticism moot?

No, that's not my point at all. My point is that the concept of patriotism may be/feel different to people in different countries, especially Germany, as discussed in the Der Spiegel article I posted.


(15-08-2012 10:14 AM)Vosur Wrote:  That sounds a lot like the genetic fallacy to me. Are you implying that patriotism has never been used in any other country's past history to justify atrocities?

Where did I say anything like that?

(15-08-2012 10:14 AM)Vosur Wrote:  I'd also like you to answer this question truthfully: Would you have responded the same way if I came from the USA?

All my answers are the truth as I see it, you just don't like some or all of them. To answer your question, there would be no reason to cite Germany's struggle to deal with patriotism, and I wouldn't have brought it up if your profile didn't indicate that you live in Germany.

(15-08-2012 10:14 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Anyway, why would anyone feel guilty for something that happened before he was even born, in other words, something that he had no influence on?

WHY they do is a question for psychologists. THAT they do is fact, see for example
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/nyregi...colwe.html

(15-08-2012 10:14 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Likewise, why would anyone feel proud of something that he had no influence on?

You haven't thought this one through at all. People are routinely proud of things they have had no influence on.
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15-08-2012, 01:51 PM
RE: America, Fuck Yeah!
(15-08-2012 01:35 PM)Jeff Wrote:  That's too bad, Logica, I feel sorry for you. Patriotism and pride for one's country is a good thing.

A pinch of salt on your food is also a good thing. That doesn't mean that you should empty the salt cellar onto your plate. There's a healthy amount and an unhealthy amount... one is use, the other is abuse.
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15-08-2012, 01:57 PM
RE: America, Fuck Yeah!
(15-08-2012 10:15 AM)cufflink Wrote:  But there's obviously no objective reality in his statement.

Cufflink, I'd like to see you support this statement. Are you coming from a position where everyone in the class should get a first place ribbon?
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15-08-2012, 02:02 PM
RE: Patriotism, Fuck No!
(15-08-2012 12:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  Patriotism is a lot like religion; it can be a motivation for good, but can tip over into horror. My strongest positive feelings for my countries relate to freedom and opportunity, both of which seem to be slipping away, partly due to the uber-patriots.

I think you're describing the difference between patriotism and nationalism. Here's an article that aligns with how I look at it http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/n...atriotism/

The gist of it is:

"George Orwell wrote that nationalism was one of the worst enemies of peace. He defined nationalism as the feeling that your way of life, country, or ethnic group were superior to others. These types of feelings lead a group to attempt to impose their morality on any given situation. When those standards were not met, more often then not, war would result.

In contrast he stated that patriotism was the feeling of admiration for a way of life etc. and the willingness to defend it against attack. The obvious difference between the two is that while patriotism is a passive attitude, nationalism is aggressive by nature."
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