America, Fuck Yeah!
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15-08-2012, 02:07 PM
RE: America, Fuck Yeah!
OK enough bickering. Let's get back to celebrating America - Fuck Yeah!



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15-08-2012, 02:11 PM
RE: America, Fuck Yeah!
The first nation to rise up against the kings, the priests, the churches, to have freedom from that system.



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15-08-2012, 02:12 PM
RE: America, Fuck Yeah!
(15-08-2012 01:49 PM)Red Celt Wrote:  But, y'know, whatever floats ya boat.

You started with the snark dude. I give it as I get it.
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15-08-2012, 02:19 PM
RE: America, Fuck Yeah!
(15-08-2012 02:12 PM)Jeff Wrote:  
(15-08-2012 01:49 PM)Red Celt Wrote:  But, y'know, whatever floats ya boat.

You started with the snark dude. I give it as I get it.

I just read back... I saw no snark from me.
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15-08-2012, 02:34 PM
RE: America, Fuck Yeah!
Someone told me the proper way to pronounce it was 'Merica, when it's said with pride. Agree? Disagree?

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15-08-2012, 02:48 PM (This post was last modified: 15-08-2012 03:14 PM by Vosur.)
RE: America, Fuck Yeah!
(15-08-2012 01:51 PM)Jeff Wrote:  No, that's not my point at all. My point is that the concept of patriotism may be/feel different to people in different countries, especially Germany, as discussed in the Der Spiegel article I posted.
Again, because I'm from Germany, you assumed that I would feel the same way the people described in the article do. You didn't judge me based on what I posted, you judged me based on my country of origin instead. That's exactly what the genetic fallacy is. To give you an idea of how it sounds like: If I were to do the same thing, I would accuse you of being biased towards patriotism because I would assume that you are a patriotic, religious and crazy gun-wielding American. But as you can see, I'm not doing it.

(15-08-2012 01:51 PM)Jeff Wrote:  Where did I say anything like that?
You claimed that because I was born in Germany, I likely wouldn't have anything against patriotism itself, just something against it's use in my country's past. I think that you either don't know that patriotism has been misused in the same way by probably every country that participated in WWI and WWII, including the USA (patriotism is and has always been a handy tool for propaganda), making the specific mentioning of Germany moot, or you are being intellectually dishonest.

(15-08-2012 01:51 PM)Jeff Wrote:  All my answers are the truth as I see it, you just don't like some or all of them. To answer your question, there would be no reason to cite Germany's struggle to deal with patriotism, and I wouldn't have brought it up if your profile didn't indicate that you live in Germany.
Let me rephrase the question. Would you have accused me the same way if I was born in the USA? Would you have accused me of not being against patriotism itself, but merely against it's usage in my country's past?

(15-08-2012 01:51 PM)Jeff Wrote:  WHY they do is a question for psychologists. THAT they do is fact, see for example
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/nyregi...colwe.html
I didn't say that they don't do it. I posed the question as to why they would do it, because there is no rational reason to do so. Do you feel guilty for the crimes commited by your government in the past? If so, why? If not, why?

(15-08-2012 01:51 PM)Jeff Wrote:  You haven't thought this one through at all. People are routinely proud of things they have had no influence on.
Actually, I did think it through. See above.

One last note, do me a favor and keep the ad hominems to yourself, as they are completely counter-productive to the discussion. It's pointless to accuse me of "not liking the truth of your posts" and "not thinking my arguments through", because these are not coherent arguments, they are nothing but provocative statements.

Edit: If you wish to discuss this any further, I suggest that we open a new thread, rather than derailing this one.

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15-08-2012, 03:12 PM
RE: America, Fuck Yeah!




*shrugs shoulders like Fry* Sorry, the parallels where too much to resist!

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15-08-2012, 03:17 PM
America, Fuck Yeah!
(15-08-2012 02:34 PM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  Someone told me the proper way to pronounce it was 'Merica, when it's said with pride. Agree? Disagree?

That's how Chas says it.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of Calvinism is that good Atheists do nothing." ~Eric Oh My
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15-08-2012, 03:24 PM
RE: America, Fuck Yeah!
(15-08-2012 03:17 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(15-08-2012 02:34 PM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  Someone told me the proper way to pronounce it was 'Merica, when it's said with pride. Agree? Disagree?

That's how Chas says it.

What happens if I say it like that? Will I turn into a pillar of salt, since I'm Canadian? *tries it* Anybody need seasoning? There seems to be a surplus over here.

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15-08-2012, 03:52 PM
RE: America, Fuck Yeah!
(15-08-2012 02:48 PM)Vosur Wrote:  You didn't judge me based on what I posted, you judged me based on my country of origin instead.

Yes I judged you on what you posted. You posted two cartoons - both with negative views of patriotism. I thought about why you might have such a negative view of patriotism, then realized you are in Germany, and thought that the cultural view of patriotism in Germany was likely the cause.

(15-08-2012 02:48 PM)Vosur Wrote:  You claimed that because I was born in Germany, I likely wouldn't have anything against patriotism itself, just something against it's use in my country's past. I think that you either don't know that patriotism has been misused in the same way by probably every country that participated in WWI and WWII, including the USA (patriotism is and has always been a handy tool for propaganda), making the specific mentioning of Germany moot, or you are being intellectually dishonest.

I think you are referring to nationalism, as the mechanism for misuse, but whatever it's called, I am aware of it. I don't accept the dichotomy you offer - not aware vs. intellectual dishonesty. The difference between our views is that I see patriotism as a good thing and you see it as a bad thing. But your first cartoon made it clear that we're not talking about the same thing. If I thought that patriotism was represented by your first flower cartoon, then I would think it was a bad thing. But that's not what patriotism is. Patriotism is what I represented in my flower cartoon - feeling good about where you are from, in and of itself, without needing to compare to anywhere else. You can feel patriotic about your country and I can feel patriotic about mine, without there being any collision of the views.

(15-08-2012 02:48 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Let me rephrase the question. Would you have accused me the same way if I was born in the USA? Would you have accused me of not being against patriotism itself, but merely against it's usage in my country's past?

I think I've answered this above but let me know if I haven't

(15-08-2012 02:48 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I didn't say that they don't do it. I posed the question as to why they would do it, because there is no rational reason to do so.

Again, I think the why question is one for a psychologist.

(15-08-2012 02:48 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Do you feel guilty for the crimes commited by your government in the past? If so, why? If not, why?

Some germans feel guilty for their connection to a past government that exterminated 12 million people. Some americans feel guilty for their connection to a past government that enslaved black people. I personally don't feel guilty about slavery (my people were in Italy at the time), but as an american I also don't feel that I get off the issue completely free. As a citizen I bear some responsibility to deal with the legacy of slavery, even though I wasn't responsible for it.

(15-08-2012 02:48 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Likewise, why would anyone feel proud of something that he had no influence on?

Actually, I did think it through. See above.

OK then, here are things that people routinely feel proud of that they had no influence on:

- their family, ancestors etc.
- their good name
- their country
- the cars that their country makes
- their favorite sports team
- their national cuisine
- something their government accomplishes
- their genetics, their looks, their hair, their eyes
etc etc etc

(15-08-2012 02:48 PM)Vosur Wrote:  One last note, do me a favor and keep the ad hominems to yourself, as they are completely counter-productive to the discussion. It's pointless to accuse me of "not liking the truth of your posts" and "not thinking my arguments through", because these are not coherent arguments, they are nothing but provocative statements.

When you ask someone to answer truthfully, you suggest that they have not done so before, or are not likely to do so unless told to do so. That was your statement and you need to own it. I still maintain that the issue is not one of truth, but just that you disagree with my view. When you suggested that people wouldn't feel proud of something they had no influence on, you ignored so much of human reality that I really couldn't think of a better answer than needing to think it through.

Edit: If you wish to discuss this any further, I suggest that we open a new thread, rather than derailing this one.
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We just simply disagree about what patriotism is and I don't feel the need to try to change your mind. I had no desire to discuss it to begin with, but having started a thread, I felt that I wanted to be responsive to comments.
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