American education
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27-02-2013, 03:29 PM
RE: American education
(27-02-2013 11:42 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(26-02-2013 10:01 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  RE...

"The Northern and West/East coast part of the US are fairly innovative, liberal, well educated, wealthy, etc. and lead the world in every possible field that you could name."

I can't let this pass without comment. An attitude like this is very unhealthy. You need to pull your head in.

I begrudge no one a modicum of healthy patriotism, yet , just to "balance the books" you should realise in many ways America lags behind many other parts of the world...

- Your processed food is poisoning uninformed people throughout the world with Macdonalds, KFC and others springing up everywhere. The USA is the fattest country in the world (Australia and NZ run a close second). For the first time in the last century, children born now in the USA are not expected to live longer than their parents, despite probable developments in medicine, because so many people are eating rubbish.

-As best I can tell your health care system is second rate and very expensive.

- The CIA has a habit of sticking its nose in other country's business.

- America's behaviour in launching wars in Afghanistan and Iraq was immoral and contravened the United Nations directive. Then we can talk about Vietnam, South America, Iran and the list goes on.

- Your home grown cars are, as a whole, crap by world standards

- Your education levels, taken as a whole, are poor for a developed country.

- to suggest America leads the world in art, literature and music is just plain wrong.

- your legal system , as best I can tell, is heavily orientated towads lawyers making money, not fair play.

-Are you aware that Americans are sometimes portrayed as being loud, stupid and arrogant? Why are you doing your best to prove that assertion?


These are generalisations, and all countries, including mine (Australia), have faults.

People are often told they live in the best country in the world, which is just patriotic bullshit. It can lead to wars (for eg Nazi Germany, Bush in Iraq) and racism.

The reality is we are all one human family. Some parts of that family do some things better than others. There is no one branch of the family that does everything the best.
I know this wasn't addressed to me personally, but I wanted to reply anyway. I agree that the comment about the Northern and West/East coast was a stretch. And I also agree with some, but not all of what you said.

America does lag behind in some things. I think it's impossible for a country to be #1 in everything and, as an American, it doesn't bother me that we're not. (I know you weren't saying it should.)

The processed food that you mentioned isn't representative of our food. That is certainly the worst of our food. It's also probably the most marketed and franchised as far as restaurants are concerned so that's why it's what you see most internationally.

Our healthcare system is among the top in the world in terms of medical care itself. There are certainly other countries with equally excellent medical care as well. And yes, it's expensive if you don't have medical insurance. That's why Obama introduced the so-called Obamacare, but there was so much opposition to it that it didn't turn out the way he originally intended. It remains to be seen if the modified version that passed will be better than what we had before. Regardless, I think it's still far too expensive.

The CIA is doing what an intelligence agency should do. I understand why that would be offensive to other countries. Other countries also do the same to the US.

I personally completely agree about the wrongness of launching a war in Iraq without UN support. And there are many more people here who agree with me than you might realize. Of course there are plenty who also agree with President Bush too, but from outside the US, it may have seemed like everyone agreed with him. Afghanistan I think is another matter because that had more of a direct link with 9/11. We were personally attacked and UN support shouldn't be required for us to defend ourselves.

I totally agree that our cars are crap. In fact I don't drive one. It's because of our unions and the amount of money that goes into the associated expenses. It makes it nearly impossible to compete with world manufacturers that don't have those.

Our educational system really cannot be taken as a whole. It varies greatly by state and by regions within states. I suppose you could average out scores across the nation and maybe that's what you meant by "taken as a whole", but that really isn't an accurate representation of education in the US because the areas with terrible educational systems will drag down the ones that really are excellent. If we are lacking in an area, it's probably knowledge about other countries which I admit is somewhat egocentric.

Your comment about art, literature, and music seems accurate to me.

Our legal system does have problems, but to say it's all or mainly due to greedy lawyers really is not accurate and is a stereotype. Yes, we do have some greedy lawyers, but we also have plenty of good ones who care about doing the right thing. I think the biggest problem with our legal system has more to do with the appeals process and the length of time it all takes. But the matter is far too complicated to detail accurately here.

Quote:People are often told they live in the best country in the world, which is just patriotic bullshit. It can lead to wars (for eg Nazi Germany, Bush in Iraq) and racism.

The reality is we are all one human family. Some parts of that family do some things better than others. There is no one branch of the family that does everything the best.
Well said. Thumbsup
Hi impulse, thanks for your reply. I hear you and I agree. I accept your qualifications.

Just so you know, I don't have an anti American agenda, and I have over a thousand facebook friends in the USA who are smart, open minded and friendly.

I'm well aware that the USA is a world leader in many areas. After all, I'm writing on an apple computer, I'm using the internet and I'm blown away that "we" landed on the moon.
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27-02-2013, 03:57 PM
RE: American education
(26-02-2013 04:17 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  
(25-02-2013 10:59 PM)StorMFront Wrote:  How does an American determining what to believe or not to? Under anything goes?

Which I know it doesnt, yet most of your population thinks it does...

What the fuck is religious freedom, what you can believe whatever you wanted to? that a squirrel blew a load and created everything? Obviously, America isnt open to every belief.....or you would have massive amounts of beliefs in the States.

Why are you so angry at America? Why does America have to be the torch-bearer in all things imaginable? Why are we not allowed to be 11th or 27th or 138th? We could very well be number one if we started teaching class like a military - uniforms, strict discipline, higher standards. But we would be giving up certain rights of expression and individualism just to climb a few spots on a ranking chart. What chart are you using, by the way? Because I see vastly different rankings with each chart. Everywhere from 6th to 26th. In all the rankings I've seen, America ranks higher than the UK. So again, why are you specifically targeting America? Finland and Denmark have better schools. So be it.

And yes, religious freedom is absolute religious freedom. There are over 300 denominations and sects of every religion you can think of. There are religions based around science fiction novels. There are religions focused on Elvis and Clay Aiken. Jedi Knight is a religion that started in Canada and found its way here. Weird religions. Yes you can start a religion that claims the universe is caused by a squirrel blowing a load (I believe that's the central thesis of the Veridican religion), but good luck trying to get any followers.

People are not smart. They are mammals that learned to communicate and developed an unearned sense of self-worth. So why are you so mad that America lets the morons flourish?
I am not angry, I was asking just as a curious mind. I was just trying to understand American society.

Arguing with a Christian is a lot like playing chess with a pigeon. You can be the greatest player in the world, yet the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, shit on the board and strut away triumphantly.
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27-02-2013, 04:01 PM
RE: American education
(26-02-2013 06:49 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(25-02-2013 10:59 PM)StorMFront Wrote:  How does an American determining what to believe or not to? Under anything goes?

Which I know it doesnt, yet most of your population thinks it does...

What the fuck is religious freedom, what you can believe whatever you wanted to? that a squirrel blew a load and created everything? Obviously, America isnt open to every belief.....or you would have massive amounts of beliefs in the States.

Yes and yes (to your "believe whatever you wanted to" and "squirrel orgasm creating the universe"). Of course you can believe whatever you want to... what made you think that such beliefs are illegal (or, sadly, even uncommon) in the US? And we do have massive amounts of beliefs in the states. For example, there are over 1000 different types of Christianity, and I imagine that most of them are represented here in one form or another... all legal.
I never said they were illegal, just curious why a culture would allow something so absurd to be taught. In my opinion, this type of thinking affects more then just your culture identity but also your economy.

Arguing with a Christian is a lot like playing chess with a pigeon. You can be the greatest player in the world, yet the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, shit on the board and strut away triumphantly.
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27-02-2013, 04:06 PM
RE: American education
(26-02-2013 10:20 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(25-02-2013 08:31 PM)StorMFront Wrote:  I am not an American, yet Id like to get American view points on this. Ive read on threads (here and other places) about education in your country. I am actually shocked in what some of Americans are actually being taught (elementary school and high school). You actually have states that require students to be informed of "controversy of evolution", or how does your country actually allow a Creation "museum" (that is allowed to state it as being true, and people actually believe it?).
The quality of education varies greatly in the US depending on what state you live in and what part of each state you live in. Some schools provide a great education rivaling the best in the world while others provide complete crap. You can't make an accurate blanket generalization about education in the US. This happens because education is controlled at the state level, not federal. So different states implement different educational systems. The amount of money allocated to schools varies by state and the specific curricula does too. Within a state, the quality of education varies as well due probably mostly to socioeconomic differences.

As for the creation museum, I'm curious, would you prefer it was banned? If so, it would obviously be ridiculous to ban creation museums specifically, so under what broader heading would you ban some organizations and not others?

Quote:I might come off as an ignorant asshole of your culture, but ....do you care what the rest of the world thinks? are your people so self adsorbed in your culture?
I see you have the stereotype of Americans down pat. Dodgy We are a nation of many subcultures. Many people are born here and many are not. Those that are born here may have parents or grandparents who were not. Or their families may have lived here for many generations. Within the subcultures, people vary. There are sensitive ones, intelligent ones, rude ones, ignorant ones, funny ones, boring ones, ... just like every other country. Rolleyes

Did I mention I hate overgeneralizations?

Quote:I just want to point this out that, America is number one in economic wealth but number 27 in the world in education. Yet, your number 1 in Western society as being the most religious, and the most anti science society in western society. I wonder if you can recover to what you were in the 1960s to 1990s?
Where's your proof of these statistics? "...the most anti science society in western society..." What does that even mean? And what nation can possibly be #1 in everything?
Ban the creation museum ...hell no, but maybe force it to have a disclaimer on it? People are actually taking children there to be taught opposites of what actual science has to say about it.

The proof of my statistics are easily obtained with a google search. What does anti science mean...well I dont think I need to explain that.

Arguing with a Christian is a lot like playing chess with a pigeon. You can be the greatest player in the world, yet the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, shit on the board and strut away triumphantly.
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27-02-2013, 04:11 PM
RE: American education
(27-02-2013 04:18 AM)Sceptical Prophet Wrote:  
(25-02-2013 08:43 PM)StorMFront Wrote:  Just to clarify, Americans had reasons to be innovative and educated in the 1960s and 1990s (USSR is the biggest one). Im just wondering what is driving your society to be number one? It seems to be religious driving now...
Historically, the driving force of America's growth was the scientific and thus technological leap it made during the Cold War. At that time, science was heavily funded and NASA developed.

But at the same time, you have to understand that Americans were still strongly religious at this time. NASA was founded by a German scientist (because the Nazi rocket technology was so far ahead of its time).

Sociologically speaking, we can assume with some certainty that what happened was a lot of science done under America's name by people who were not American born. They provided the funding and the infrastructure but they did not provide the genius - that was foreign.

Neil deGrasse Tyson has pointed this out before. The greatest scientific contributions by America were not by American born people - they were by immigrants drawn to America by the promise of opportunity (to pursue science and technology). NDT makes the argument that by reducing its funding in science (NASA specifically), America will suffer greatly in the future. I agree with that point but it's not relevant here. What is relevant is that NDT pointed out a trend of new scientists going to Europe now instead of America because America slashed its funding and because the LHC is in Europe. Once upon a time, all the greatest facilities would have been exclusively in America.

What is driving it to be number one? You'll have to be more specific. Pride? Arrogance? Or do you mean physical contributions, such as science? Economic faith in America has taken a hit and with other emergent economies, FDIs into America will lessen.


What you've identified is an education gap - the loudest people in America are its idiots. The highly educated (few of which are American-born; i.e. not from immigrant descent) do not have enough impact on the country. Think about it, how is the Republican party still in the running? Because the votes of a million idiots outweigh the vote of one genius.
I agree with everything you said, this is the type of answer I wanted. Its what I actually expected, just you dont get this opinion from American media.

Arguing with a Christian is a lot like playing chess with a pigeon. You can be the greatest player in the world, yet the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, shit on the board and strut away triumphantly.
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27-02-2013, 04:26 PM
American education
America is driven to become #1 in what? Measured how? By whom?

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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27-02-2013, 04:28 PM
RE: American education
(27-02-2013 03:29 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(27-02-2013 11:42 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I know this wasn't addressed to me personally, but I wanted to reply anyway. I agree that the comment about the Northern and West/East coast was a stretch. And I also agree with some, but not all of what you said.

America does lag behind in some things. I think it's impossible for a country to be #1 in everything and, as an American, it doesn't bother me that we're not. (I know you weren't saying it should.)

The processed food that you mentioned isn't representative of our food. That is certainly the worst of our food. It's also probably the most marketed and franchised as far as restaurants are concerned so that's why it's what you see most internationally.

Our healthcare system is among the top in the world in terms of medical care itself. There are certainly other countries with equally excellent medical care as well. And yes, it's expensive if you don't have medical insurance. That's why Obama introduced the so-called Obamacare, but there was so much opposition to it that it didn't turn out the way he originally intended. It remains to be seen if the modified version that passed will be better than what we had before. Regardless, I think it's still far too expensive.

The CIA is doing what an intelligence agency should do. I understand why that would be offensive to other countries. Other countries also do the same to the US.

I personally completely agree about the wrongness of launching a war in Iraq without UN support. And there are many more people here who agree with me than you might realize. Of course there are plenty who also agree with President Bush too, but from outside the US, it may have seemed like everyone agreed with him. Afghanistan I think is another matter because that had more of a direct link with 9/11. We were personally attacked and UN support shouldn't be required for us to defend ourselves.

I totally agree that our cars are crap. In fact I don't drive one. It's because of our unions and the amount of money that goes into the associated expenses. It makes it nearly impossible to compete with world manufacturers that don't have those.

Our educational system really cannot be taken as a whole. It varies greatly by state and by regions within states. I suppose you could average out scores across the nation and maybe that's what you meant by "taken as a whole", but that really isn't an accurate representation of education in the US because the areas with terrible educational systems will drag down the ones that really are excellent. If we are lacking in an area, it's probably knowledge about other countries which I admit is somewhat egocentric.

Your comment about art, literature, and music seems accurate to me.

Our legal system does have problems, but to say it's all or mainly due to greedy lawyers really is not accurate and is a stereotype. Yes, we do have some greedy lawyers, but we also have plenty of good ones who care about doing the right thing. I think the biggest problem with our legal system has more to do with the appeals process and the length of time it all takes. But the matter is far too complicated to detail accurately here.

Well said. Thumbsup
Hi impulse, thanks for your reply. I hear you and I agree. I accept your qualifications.

Just so you know, I don't have an anti American agenda, and I have over a thousand facebook friends in the USA who are smart, open minded and friendly.

I'm well aware that the USA is a world leader in many areas. After all, I'm writing on an apple computer, I'm using the internet and I'm blown away that "we" landed on the moon.
No worries. I didn't interpret your earlier comments as having an anti-American agenda. I am fully aware of the loud mouths in the US that give the country a bad name internationally. Unfortunately, that has lead to a lot of misinformation and stereotypes and my aim simply was to provide clarification not only for you, but for anyone else reading this thread.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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27-02-2013, 04:35 PM
RE: American education
Well, if I have to explain it to you Cardinal Smurf, you are not the person I am looking to answer my questions.

Arguing with a Christian is a lot like playing chess with a pigeon. You can be the greatest player in the world, yet the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, shit on the board and strut away triumphantly.
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27-02-2013, 04:44 PM
RE: American education
(27-02-2013 04:06 PM)StorMFront Wrote:  
(26-02-2013 10:20 AM)Impulse Wrote:  The quality of education varies greatly in the US depending on what state you live in and what part of each state you live in. Some schools provide a great education rivaling the best in the world while others provide complete crap. You can't make an accurate blanket generalization about education in the US. This happens because education is controlled at the state level, not federal. So different states implement different educational systems. The amount of money allocated to schools varies by state and the specific curricula does too. Within a state, the quality of education varies as well due probably mostly to socioeconomic differences.

As for the creation museum, I'm curious, would you prefer it was banned? If so, it would obviously be ridiculous to ban creation museums specifically, so under what broader heading would you ban some organizations and not others?

I see you have the stereotype of Americans down pat. Dodgy We are a nation of many subcultures. Many people are born here and many are not. Those that are born here may have parents or grandparents who were not. Or their families may have lived here for many generations. Within the subcultures, people vary. There are sensitive ones, intelligent ones, rude ones, ignorant ones, funny ones, boring ones, ... just like every other country. Rolleyes

Did I mention I hate overgeneralizations?

Where's your proof of these statistics? "...the most anti science society in western society..." What does that even mean? And what nation can possibly be #1 in everything?
Ban the creation museum ...hell no, but maybe force it to have a disclaimer on it? People are actually taking children there to be taught opposites of what actual science has to say about it.

The proof of my statistics are easily obtained with a google search. What does anti science mean...well I dont think I need to explain that.
The problem with the disclaimer is the people running the museum likely believe the crap they're teaching. What would the disclaimer say? "While some disagree, we believe the information is the truth"? I don't see that working with religious-minded people who "know" they are right and couldn't care less that some others disagree. And this would probably be seen as a violation of both our freedom of speech and freedom of religion. How is this museum any different from allowing religions to say whatever they want inside their places of worship without a disclaimer?

The statistics are easily obtained by a Google search, but that's not proof. My point really is it's important to know where those statistics came from. If a study was poorly done, the results are worth crap. So how was educational level measured? How did they account for the differences in quality of education for different regions within the US (and any other country with similar disparities that were included in the studies)? Who conducted the studies? Were the samples valid? I'm not really asking for you to provide the answers as much as giving you something to think about. There are enough problems that invalidate the results of most standardized tests within a country, let alone trying to compare various countries. We have nothing better right now so we continue to use them, but it doesn't make them accurate.

Yes I know what anti-science means. I was asking you about the whole phrase that I previously quoted ("...the most anti science society in western society..."). How is the US the most anti science society in western society? What do you mean by that?

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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27-02-2013, 04:54 PM
RE: American education
(27-02-2013 04:44 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(27-02-2013 04:06 PM)StorMFront Wrote:  Ban the creation museum ...hell no, but maybe force it to have a disclaimer on it? People are actually taking children there to be taught opposites of what actual science has to say about it.

The proof of my statistics are easily obtained with a google search. What does anti science mean...well I dont think I need to explain that.
The problem with the disclaimer is the people running the museum likely believe the crap they're teaching. What would the disclaimer say? "While some disagree, we believe the information is the truth"? I don't see that working with religious-minded people who "know" they are right and couldn't care less that some others disagree. And this would probably be seen as a violation of both our freedom of speech and freedom of religion. How is this museum any different from allowing religions to say whatever they want inside their places of worship without a disclaimer?

The statistics are easily obtained by a Google search, but that's not proof. My point really is it's important to know where those statistics came from. If a study was poorly done, the results are worth crap. So how was educational level measured? How did they account for the differences in quality of education for different regions within the US (and any other country with similar disparities that were included in the studies)? Who conducted the studies? Were the samples valid? I'm not really asking for you to provide the answers as much as giving you something to think about. There are enough problems that invalidate the results of most standardized tests within a country, let alone trying to compare various countries. We have nothing better right now so we continue to use them, but it doesn't make them accurate.

Yes I know what anti-science means. I was asking you about the whole phrase that I previously quoted ("...the most anti science society in western society..."). How is the US the most anti science society in western society? What do you mean by that?
"This institution has no science backing evidence to support the claims it is endorsing, to find out what actual evidence and science has to say about the topics enclosed...contact such and such institute".

Arguing with a Christian is a lot like playing chess with a pigeon. You can be the greatest player in the world, yet the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, shit on the board and strut away triumphantly.
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