An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
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24-06-2017, 03:54 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
Let me frame the question.
Q: How would I know my journey is spiritual?
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24-06-2017, 03:54 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 03:38 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  Do we have a definition yet? Without one, you're literally seeking anything. You might as well hold up a fish bowl and call it God. How can you have knowledge about a completely undefined subject?

In the analogy I don't have any definition of elephant because I haven't seen him yet. But I have "some knowledge about it" by seeing its footsteps.
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24-06-2017, 04:05 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 03:54 PM)sea_tiger Wrote:  Let me frame the question.
Q: How would I know my journey is spiritual?

I got it. I just don't have any good answer for it right now. Would you accept if I say: you are in a spiritual journey when you are aware that you are in a spiritual journey. I'm aware it's a logically flawed definition but it might be useful.

Someone random asks you: are you in a spiritual journey? you say yes, then you are in a spiritual journey in that very moment (you will not be in other times when you forget that you are in a spiritual journey), you say no, then you are not in a spiritual journey in that very moment (you will be in other times when you have this awareness).

For religions that involve god, they say that you must be "aware of god" as long as you are aware of it you are going forward, as soon as you forget it you start moving backwards.

This is actually a method to evaluate if a person is in a spiritual journey. It's not a definition.

I think more and come back if I had a more sensible answer.
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24-06-2017, 04:13 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
Its confusing.If I consider myself spiritual then I am , if I consider myself not spiritual then I am not?
If I have been doing same things in both scenarios ,other than labeling myself there is no difference.
Maybe the type of conscious thoughts I engage in define spirituality.If that's true what is spirituality?
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24-06-2017, 04:20 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 03:36 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(24-06-2017 03:09 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I have no evidence to provide for you. I'm just suggesting that you will find the evidence of your own once your start your own journey and that evidence will be more than enough for you. You can of course consider me a liar. There is nothing I can do about it.

I don't consider you a liar; I've met too many with similar views to doubt that you believe what you say. The problem is that what you are saying is nonsense. "Evidence" is demonstrable and testable and can be examined by multiple people. The subjective experiences that you are labeling "evidence" is an abuse of the term.

Quote:Ok let's say describing colors for someone who is blind (=the visual cortex of their brain does not work), you can only suggest him to give a try and find a cure (just assume there is a cure). What kind of evidence of color can you give him!?

I can show him which object I call red and which I call blue and leave the room and let him move things around. I will be able to consistently identify which is which. I can explain how the EM spectrum works and show how receptors in the eye react to different wavelengths providing a solid basis for understanding exactly how to build a color detector even if he can't see the colors.

How do I build a god detector?

Quote:Again, I'm not implying you "lack" something, this is merely an analogy.

The problem is that elephants, and colors, are things that exist within the reality we experience and can be examined consistently. If I'd never seen an elephant but just heard descriptions there would be no natural laws broken in considering their existence. Based on when and where people claimed to have seen them I could make reasonable inferences on whether they were likely to exist and how best to verify it. This is especially true as more and more descriptions are examined and they tend to align.

God descriptions, on the other hand, are vague, contradictory, and generally violate the physical laws that we rely on. There is nothing to grasp onto to even begin to determine if one exists. What one person sees as a sign of god another sees as random chance or delusion and there's no test that can be used to show that it was, in fact, a god. Over time, as all claims seem to fit easily into the chance or delusion categories it becomes more reasonable to assume that's all it is.

Quote:How do I build a god detector?
I suggest starting a spiritual journey and have some degree of persistence. I think that's how you build a god detector. There are many ways to build a color detector and there are many ways to start a spiritual journey. Some research can give you very definite instructions on how to start a spiritual journey or how to create a god detector as you put it.

I can give my god detector to you, but it has no use for you, a blind person must make his own color detector to have a some understanding of what color is, likewise you should create your own god detector. I think there is no other way.
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24-06-2017, 04:25 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 04:13 PM)sea_tiger Wrote:  Its confusing.If I consider myself spiritual then I am , if I consider myself not spiritual then I am not?
If I have been doing same things in both scenarios ,other than labeling myself there is no difference.
Maybe the type of conscious thoughts I engage in define spirituality.If that's true what is spirituality?

Yes I'm suggesting if you are doing the exact same thing but your moment to moment conscious thought is different you can be in a spiritual journey or not.

I don't think I can define spirituality. It's like trying to define god. As soon as you define it it's useless. I think there is no point in going after something definite.
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24-06-2017, 04:28 PM (This post was last modified: 24-06-2017 04:31 PM by Vera.)
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 04:20 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I suggest starting a spiritual journey

Stop saying this ad nauseam as if it means something. It doesn't. It is entirely meaningless.

"This life is nothing short of an invocation wellspring of high-frequency manna. We exist, we believe, we are reborn."

Quote:I don't think I can define spirituality. It's like trying to define god. As soon as you define it it's useless. I think there is no point in going after something definite.

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"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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24-06-2017, 04:30 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 04:28 PM)Vera Wrote:  
(24-06-2017 04:20 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I suggest starting a spiritual journey

Stop saying this ad nauseam as if it means something. It doesn't. It is entirely meaningless.

"This life is nothing short of an invocation wellspring of high-frequency manna. We exist, we believe, we are reborn."

Google "How do I start a spiritual journey?" many of the results will be relevant I guess.
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24-06-2017, 04:33 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 04:30 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Google "How do I start a spiritual journey?" many of the results will be relevant I guess.

Guess what, you guessed wrong Drinking Beverage

The phrase "spiritual journey" is meaningless drivel.

WHY are you here peddling this shit when no one is even remotely interested?

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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24-06-2017, 04:36 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
I don't think definition will make it useless.
If you can give an outline of what you think spirituality is ( it can be a hint or abstract concept) it can help point things out.
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