An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
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24-06-2017, 10:50 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 08:30 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(24-06-2017 07:58 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  If you don't even have a basic idea of what does or doesn't count as an elephant, what's to stop you from seeing a giraffe, deciding it's an elephant, and deciding your search is finished?

Similarly, if you don't even know what a god is, what's to stop you from seeing, say, the sun and deciding it's a god? Or lightning? (Both of these have been interpreted as gods many times over. Nowadays, we know them as being nothing more than plasma.) Or perhaps you might think a rock is a god, which is also something people have believed before. You might even believe that Prince Phillip is a god which, yes, is an actual religion.

So you might not need to know every last detail about the god you're setting out to look for. But you'd at least need to have enough of a definition to have an idea of what would or wouldn't count as a god. Otherwise, you'd just be pointing to things at random and saying, "LOOK! A GOD!" And what kind of search would that be?

Quote:If you don't even have a basic idea of what does or doesn't count as an elephant, what's to stop you from seeing a giraffe, deciding it's an elephant, and deciding your search is finished?
You forgot about the guy who was accompanying me. He was quite essential in the analogy. I never stop searching until he tells me we have found the elephant. After finding evidences and learning that he is taking me in the right path, I have a super strong trust in him.

Considering no one has been able to produce anything remotely resembling evidence for a god (and, like you, most people can't even define it) I think you have way too much trust in this guy. I really hope he's not taking your money. He may really firmly believe whatever stuff he is saying, but what he's claiming is absurd. He's saying he "knows" something that all of the scientists in the world have been unable to fathom. And I bet he can't define what a God is either.

What does this matter anyway? You don't even know what it is, so what do you hope to achieve?

The fact that you can only talk about this by analogy shows the extreme lack of grounding in reality.

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24-06-2017, 10:51 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
We know elephants exist. of course, if you and your friend are hunting elephants in North Dakota, you aren't going to find one. Analogies aren't really a good way to argue these things. Perhaps if you substitute leprechauns for elephants you can see why.

Now, what evidence is there fore God? Good hard evidence? After centuries we have nothing. And again, the concepts mankind has claimed constitute the attributes of God create so many contradictions and problems, God in the end is not a viable proposition.

Parable of the Garden - John Wisdom

Once upon a time two explorers came upon a clearing in the jungle. In the clearing were growing many flowers and many weeds. One explorer says, "Some gardener must tend this plot." The other disagrees, "There is no gardener." So they pitch their tents and set a watch. No gardener is ever seen. "But perhaps he is an invisible gardener." So they set up a barbed-wire fence. They electrify it. They patrol with bloodhounds. (For they remember how H. G. Well's The Invisible Man could be both smelt and touched though he could not be seen.) But no shrieks ever suggest that some intruder has received a shock. No movements of the wire ever betray an invisible climber. The bloodhounds never give cry. Yet still the Believer is not convinced. "But there is a gardener, invisible, intangible, insensible, to electric shocks, a gardener who has no scent and makes no sound, a gardener who comes secretly to look after the garden which he loves. At last the Sceptic despairs, "But what remains of your original assertion? Just how does what you call an invisible, intangible, eternally elusive gardener differ from an imaginary gardener or even from no gardener at all?"

I'll see your analogy and raise you a parable.

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

Cheerful Charlie
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24-06-2017, 10:58 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
What are these footprints, anyway? Does it amount to this guy drip-feeding encouragement that you're making progress?

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24-06-2017, 11:55 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 08:30 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(24-06-2017 07:58 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  If you don't even have a basic idea of what does or doesn't count as an elephant, what's to stop you from seeing a giraffe, deciding it's an elephant, and deciding your search is finished?

Similarly, if you don't even know what a god is, what's to stop you from seeing, say, the sun and deciding it's a god? Or lightning? (Both of these have been interpreted as gods many times over. Nowadays, we know them as being nothing more than plasma.) Or perhaps you might think a rock is a god, which is also something people have believed before. You might even believe that Prince Phillip is a god which, yes, is an actual religion.

So you might not need to know every last detail about the god you're setting out to look for. But you'd at least need to have enough of a definition to have an idea of what would or wouldn't count as a god. Otherwise, you'd just be pointing to things at random and saying, "LOOK! A GOD!" And what kind of search would that be?

Quote:If you don't even have a basic idea of what does or doesn't count as an elephant, what's to stop you from seeing a giraffe, deciding it's an elephant, and deciding your search is finished?
You forgot about the guy who was accompanying me. He was quite essential in the analogy. I never stop searching until he tells me we have found the elephant. After finding evidences and learning that he is taking me in the right path, I have a super strong trust in him.

Except what evidence do you have that he's taking you on the right path? How do you know he can tell the difference between an elephant and anything else any better than you can?

In the metaphor he's shown you footprints and a carcass. How do you know those are from an elephant rather than a giraffe? Because if you can't tell the difference, how can you possibly tell that he knows what he's talking about? You said that 99% of people are getting it wrong, IIRC. How do you know he's not part of that 99%?

For that matter, how does HE know? You say he's knowledgeable. How did you make that determination? On what basis have you identified your guide as a reliable expert, rather than an over-confident buffoon or a con artist who spied a credulous mark?

How do you know that THIS person isn't just someone who points and random things and says, HEY LOOK GOD!

If he learned in the same way, by following another guide, who in turn learned by following another, who learned from another, so on back five hundred links in the chain, how do you know that that first person five hundred links back was not himself (or herself, but given how religion works probably himself) a buffoon or a fraud? Or a myth invented by the guy four-hundred-ninety-three links back?

You haven't gotten away from the problem of knowing what sort of thing counts as a god here. You've simply kicked the can down the road... and you've done so to avoid examining the question, to obscure it generations in the past rather than bring it in the light of day.

This is not the mark of a trustworthy guide.
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25-06-2017, 02:16 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 11:55 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  Because if you can't tell the difference, how can you possibly tell that he knows what he's talking about? You said that 99% of people are getting it wrong, IIRC. How do you know he's not part of that 99%?

How do you know that THIS person isn't just someone who points and random things and says, HEY LOOK GOD!

If he learned in the same way, by following another guide, who in turn learned by following another, who learned from another, so on back five hundred links in the chain, how do you know that that first person five hundred links back was not himself (or herself, but given how religion works probably himself) a buffoon or a fraud? Or a myth invented by the guy four-hundred-ninety-three links back?

I just had enough evidences for myself to trust him. Please note that trust is ultimately a subjective matter. Let's suppose he was my beloved father. Maybe that resolves your issue? My guide doesn't want anything from me and I'm not risking anything when I'm going with him, he is giving me many things, constantly helping me and overall enhances my sense of peace. So I'm not investing anything here, even if he is a fake guide, I won't be losing anything, even if I have some degree of doubt, it cannot stop me. If he wants money from me someday, I might start to doubt that I want to continue my journey with him. But it hasn't been the case up until now.

Quote:Except what evidence do you have that he's taking you on the right path? How do you know he can tell the difference between an elephant and anything else any better than you can?
I don't know, I'm just trusting him. I mentioned in the analogy that trust was essential in the first few steps, and it remains essential until the end. The evidences of his trustworthiness are just increasing with every day passing, and I haven't observed any evidence of his untrustworthiness up until now. He doesn't want anything from me and I cannot imagine a way in which he wants to abuse me. He just wants me to spend small periods of time during the day with him. That's ALL he wants from me, which's clearly for my own sake. I think a rational mind would choose trust over mistrust in this situation.
Note: The latter description makes sense concerning my actual guide not the analogy.
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25-06-2017, 02:26 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 10:50 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  What does this matter anyway? You don't even know what it is, so what do you hope to achieve?
Let's assume observing elephant's foot print has been my most pleasing experience in my entire life. Although I don't know what the elephant is, but my longing to see it is very intense due to the evidences that I have seen from him.
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25-06-2017, 02:37 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 10:58 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  What are these footprints, anyway? Does it amount to this guy drip-feeding encouragement that you're making progress?

No. I think any description of such evidences would be nonsense. So if I try to give you a description I will just add one more nonsense to the big pile of "transcendental" stuff.
It's like trying to describe red clouds for a blind person. Please note that I do not mean you "lack" something by using this analogy. This aspect of the analogy is not intended. I just couldn't find a better way to put it.
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25-06-2017, 02:56 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
I am on spiritual journey, now, what's the next step?
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25-06-2017, 03:31 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(25-06-2017 02:56 AM)sea_tiger Wrote:  I am on spiritual journey, now, what's the next step?

Just keep upThumbsup you can send me a PM whenever you felt you lack the motivation to go on. I will try to help.
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25-06-2017, 03:34 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
At work.

Hey! At least Nosferatu323 is willing/happy to believe in my wibbly appendages!

Heart

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