An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
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25-06-2017, 05:13 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
Thanks for answering my questions. It makes no sense to me at all, but I wish you well on your journey!

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25-06-2017, 06:39 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 06:27 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  This is as far as I can go with language to express what I mean at the moment.

That's the result of it being so undefined. You don't know what you are looking for or how to tell when you found it and you can't even begin to explain what it is. That should be a red flag.

(25-06-2017 02:16 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I just had enough evidences for myself to trust him. Please note that trust is ultimately a subjective matter.

Trust has a subjective component but evidence doesn't. If there is evidence then it can be explained and if it can't be explained then it isn't evidence. If you have trust based only on things that can't be explained then you are a fool.

Quote:So I'm not investing anything here, even if he is a fake guide,

You are investing time and effort into a nonsensical quest with an undefined goal.

Quote:I won't be losing anything, even if I have some degree of doubt, it cannot stop me.

Facepalm

Quote:
Quote:Except what evidence do you have that he's taking you on the right path? How do you know he can tell the difference between an elephant and anything else any better than you can?
I don't know, I'm just trusting him.

FacepalmFacepalm

Quote: think a rational mind would choose trust over mistrust in this situation.

A rational mind might conclude that the "guide" is sincere in his beliefs. I doubt it would conclude that the "journey" makes any sense. You can trust that your "guide" really thinks they are helping you and that they are simply mistaken. Your presence here may be a similar situation but no matter how much you think you are offering us something of value it is just a garage dragon.

(25-06-2017 02:26 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Let's assume observing elephant's foot print has been my most pleasing experience in my entire life. Although I don't know what the elephant is, but my longing to see it is very intense due to the evidences that I have seen from him.

[Image: f67334bc58f2468bad15312669d5edaa0afe4c44...0d296b.jpg]

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25-06-2017, 07:38 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 06:06 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Hey all,
emphasis on:

1. I didn't let the nonsense from 99% percent of the people around me who falsely claimed they have seen the elephant lead me to forget about the elephant altogether. Very few people who seemed somehow wise to me, convinced me to give it a try and not reject the elephant as a total fantasy.
2. I actually started moving, I wasn't convinced at all that the elephant exists. But I gave it a try anyway, mostly because of those 1% who didn't seem to be outright stupid in their belief and my own curiosity.
3. I trusted someone, I had to do that. Otherwise I didn't know where to go. But I was very careful with who I'm going with, because the 99% ignorant were all claiming that they can show me the way. I spent a lot of time to find that person.
4. The journey was a bit tough, some persistence was needed!
5. After a while, I could actually see some actual evidence and know about the elephant, this greatly encouraged me in my journey.
6. I believed in the existence of the elephant only after I saw the footstep. So I first needed the knowledge before believing.
7. At the end although I have hope that I will see the elephant, I have no intention to return to my previous life. I prefer to be in journey my whole life rather than returning to my previous life.

Sorry for the long post! I'm looking forward to know what you guys think about it. Rolleyes

Hi Nosferatu323, good to have you here. Shy

Just because you want to believe something, doesn't mean others want that. Also, I do not have to trust someone with my life and my thoughts - my thoughts are mine and my life is mine. What you do with your thoughts & life is your business.

The following drawing illustrates what I think about it.
[Image: 7b34234a3c5fee265077b341da6169f2.jpg]
I would be the one on the right. Shy


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25-06-2017, 08:20 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
If I had to guess, I'd say this guy is trying to make sense of reality. He's found a guy who seems to have all the answers.

Reality, emotion and introspection are all being muddled together.

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25-06-2017, 10:27 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 06:27 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  As an analogy, consider the experience of the fear of unknown. Everything is scary as long as it is indefinite (it's in darkness for example) as soon as you make it definite (turning on the lights) it looses its usefulness in terms of being scary.
If I accept perpetual darkness as my reality, it won't be scary.

Quote:Similarly, everything can be your spirituality/god/transcendent being/etc. as long as you subjectively recognize it as spirituality/god/transcendent being/etc. as soon as you define it and try to completely bring it into the objective realm it loses its effectiveness. Which means you start to lose faith in your spirituality/god/transcendent being/etc. it becomes useless for you. It can no longer serve you to pursue your journey.

In short it is my own mental contruct which is formed by seeking things from my experience and believe it to be true?Sad

Quote:In the analogy of elephant, I left the elephant absolutely blank. I didn't assume anything about it and this assumption was not required to start my journey.
Why start with labels at all if it is blank?

Quote:I just needed a name and someone trustworthy to tell me he can show it to me.
You can do without them.No reason to depend on them.No

Quote:But there is no harm in assuming something about it, but you should not make it completely definite.
Why not give up on that rule?No

Quote:If you are assuming something about it, you should be ready to throw away your assumptions when needed, otherwise you'll be stopped in your journey when you find out that the evidences that you are seeing in your journey do not match the characteristics of the elephant in your mind.

So I endlessly seek for things which would justify the label 'elephant' and ignore the the evidence against it??Sad
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25-06-2017, 02:00 PM (This post was last modified: 25-06-2017 02:04 PM by nosferatu323.)
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(25-06-2017 10:27 AM)sea_tiger Wrote:  
(24-06-2017 06:27 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  As an analogy, consider the experience of the fear of unknown. Everything is scary as long as it is indefinite (it's in darkness for example) as soon as you make it definite (turning on the lights) it looses its usefulness in terms of being scary.
If I accept perpetual darkness as my reality, it won't be scary.

Quote:Similarly, everything can be your spirituality/god/transcendent being/etc. as long as you subjectively recognize it as spirituality/god/transcendent being/etc. as soon as you define it and try to completely bring it into the objective realm it loses its effectiveness. Which means you start to lose faith in your spirituality/god/transcendent being/etc. it becomes useless for you. It can no longer serve you to pursue your journey.

In short it is my own mental contruct which is formed by seeking things from my experience and believe it to be true?Sad

Quote:In the analogy of elephant, I left the elephant absolutely blank. I didn't assume anything about it and this assumption was not required to start my journey.
Why start with labels at all if it is blank?

Quote:I just needed a name and someone trustworthy to tell me he can show it to me.
You can do without them.No reason to depend on them.No

Quote:But there is no harm in assuming something about it, but you should not make it completely definite.
Why not give up on that rule?No

Quote:If you are assuming something about it, you should be ready to throw away your assumptions when needed, otherwise you'll be stopped in your journey when you find out that the evidences that you are seeing in your journey do not match the characteristics of the elephant in your mind.

So I endlessly seek for things which would justify the label 'elephant' and ignore the the evidence against it??Sad
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Quote:In short it is my own mental contruct which is formed by seeking things from my experience and believe it to be true?Sad
Yes it is your own mental construct. But you don't believe it's true. You just have a "doubt" that it "might" have an actual referent. But you are aware that if the actual referent is found it might not be the same as your mental construct, it might be different. So you start the journey of finding the actual referent.

In the analogy of elephant the "doubt" is due to the 1% of people who are referring to elephant, they same wise and the don't utter nonsense about it. They just say they can lead me to it. But in general, the doubt might emanate from anything. Some sort of subjective feeling or whatever.

Quote:Why start with labels at all if it is blank?
The journey wouldn't exist without the elephant. The elephant is necessary. But no assumption about it is necessary. The only assumption is that the elephant is not here and I need to find it.

Quote:You can do without them.No reason to depend on them.No
What do you mean? The journey would be meaningless without a name that you are seeking its referent and someone(a man?) or something(a book?) who is leading you to the referent of the name.
Maybe you have had your journey and saw the elephant or attained absolute certainty that there is no elephant. So you no longer need the guide neither the elephant! That is not the case for me.

Quote:Why not give up on that rule?No
Because when you define it, the referent of the name is found and the journey will be meaningless. The definition and the journey cannot co-exist.

Anyway there is noway to define it! how can you define god, spirituality, transcendence, etc. they cannot have a definition. Try it out, open the dictionary, read the definitions, each of these words is defined in terms of the others. You'll end up in a vicious circle. There is no definition.

Quote:So I endlessly seek for things which would justify the label 'elephant' and ignore the the evidence against it??Sad
In the elephant analogy, I find evidences of it during my journey. So that's not as sad as you put it. Although due to the indefinite nature of the elephant I must trust my guide that these evidences are actually of an elephant not other animals for example. But that's a good assumption, after all the evidences that I found from the elephant are unlike anything that I've seen in my life.
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25-06-2017, 02:11 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(25-06-2017 02:00 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  In the analogy of elephant the "doubt" is due to the 1% of people who are referring to elephant, they same wise and the don't utter nonsense about it.

Come again?

Actually, on second thought (in my case.We're still waiting for your *first* one. Not holding our breaths, though):

[Image: demotivational-quotes-05.jpg]



Quote:You'll end up in a vicious circle.

Oh, we already *are* caught up in one. Thanks a bunch Drinking Beverage

It's fun though, in a weird way. You just keep going, you'll catch that bastard one of these days, I just know it.

[Image: giphy.gif]

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25-06-2017, 02:18 PM (This post was last modified: 25-06-2017 02:49 PM by sea_tiger.)
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
Quote:I find evidences of it during my journey.
Q:What qualifies as an evidence for anything?
(What do you think an evidence is?)
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25-06-2017, 03:21 PM (This post was last modified: 25-06-2017 04:11 PM by nosferatu323.)
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(25-06-2017 02:18 PM)sea_tiger Wrote:  
Quote:I find evidences of it during my journey.
Q:What qualifies as an evidence for anything?
(What do you think an evidence is?)

let's say an observable which supports the validity of a proposition

It's not necessarily a scientific evidence, a scientific evidence is something that is validated by a large community of scientists and is usually very easy to be demonstrated to anyone. It's not always the case. It's not really easily possible to access very high-tech facilities and observe evidences of Quantum Theory for example.

Here is an example of an unscientific evidence: suppose you somehow ended up being on the moon in 500BC (No photography). You come down and tell people that the earth is a spheroid. No body will believe you. There is no scientific evidence for that, but you have your own evidence which is valid for yourself. You should not expect everyone to believe you. But you can tell the others how you ended up on the moon, so they can try it and see for themselves. As long as there are not enough scientists trying your way to see the evidence, it remains an unscientific evidence.

The important thing is that your evidence (the exact same evidence) must be accessible for everyone and yourself. It should be the same thing when observed again. If it's hard to see the evidence or takes some time to see it, it's ok. But it should be possible.
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25-06-2017, 04:22 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(25-06-2017 03:21 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(25-06-2017 02:18 PM)sea_tiger Wrote:  Q:What qualifies as an evidence for anything?
(What do you think an evidence is?)

let's say an observable which supports the validity of a proposition

That's at least closer than you've gotten so far. The problem is that nothing about your bullshit voyage spiritual journey that is observable.

Quote:It's not necessarily a scientific evidence, a scientific evidence is something that is validated by a large community of scientists and is usually very easy to be demonstrated to anyone. It's not always the case. It's not really easily possible to access very high-tech facilities and observe evidences of Quantum Theory for example.

It is not practical to personally confirm every scientific claim but it is possible. That contrasts with "personal evidence" that can never be examined or tested by anybody else.

Quote:Here is an example of an unscientific evidence: suppose you somehow ended up being on the moon in 500BC (No photography). You come down and tell people that the earth is a spheroid. No body will believe you. There is no scientific evidence for that, but you have your own evidence which is valid for yourself.

You may have reason to believe something but if you can't replicate it or describe how others can experience it then it is right to not believe the claim.

Quote:You should not expect everyone to believe you. But you can tell the others how you ended up on the moon, so they can try it and see for themselves.

If you can tell others how to do it in such a way that they can compare specific results that would be good.

Quote: As long as there are not enough scientists trying your way to see the evidence, it remains an unscientific evidence.

Facepalm

Quote:The important thing is that your evidence (the exact same evidence) must be accessible for everyone and yourself. It should be the same thing when observed again. If it's hard to see the evidence or takes some time to see it, it's ok. But it should be possible.

Yes, it should, but the evidence needs to be directly comparable. Your feelings and desires aren't in that category.

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