An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
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25-06-2017, 05:21 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
Today's "The Atheist Experience" had a call that had bearing on this. It starts just after the 1:02 mark and runs for about 20 minutes. If you can't communicate the "divine sense" and you can't verify it against our shared reality then it can't be trusted.




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25-06-2017, 10:41 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 06:06 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Hey all,

This is my first post here! Shy Just a brief introduction:
I'd sum-up my religious view as "knowledge of God is possible". I was raised in a religious environment, but I wasn't religious except during my childhood. I can't say I converted, I just took the issue of God serious at some point in my life which led me to experiences that convinced me "knowledge of God is possible". English is not my first language, so excuse me for anything wrong in my English.

This is a talk about an alternative way to approach the issue of God. Which does not start with belief but starts with knowledge. I would like to know what you think about it. What I talk about is based on my personal experiences and some relevant religious traditions and philosophical views. Hope we can learn and express ourselves in a meaningful way in this thread.

I start it with an analogy, suppose elephant is an extremely exotic animal that is unique in every aspect. I haven't seen an elephant in my life, some people come and try to somehow describe the elephant. Very few people have seen it from very far distances and just describe it vaguely, someone has encountered it in darkness, he only talks about its voice. But 99% of them haven't seen the elephant, they just pretend that they have seen it and they just talk about their fantasies.

Irritated by these people ignorance, some day I decide to start the journey and see the elephant my self, to see if it really exists. But I don't know the way. I have to trust someone who claims he knows the way. Many people claim they know the way, but I know I must be careful, most of these people are outright delusional. I search for a long time for someone, there is a guy who tells me he has seen the elephant, but he doesn't say any nonsense like the others, in fact when I'm asking him questions he doesn't give me answers, he just says I've to see it myself and tells me he's ready to show me the way whenever I want. His words and overall wise character convinces me to give it a try and trust the guy.

We start moving. The journey starts to get tough, the guy gives me hope and tells me I won't be disappointed. I keep persist and move on. Just when I'm ready to give up and return to my life, we see very strange footsteps. The guy claims this is the elephant's footsteps. This is the first time that I know something about the elephant before this moment all that I knew was a bunch of nonsense that I had heard from people. But now I'm seeing an actual weird footstep. I say to myself: "this is something!" I believe that this is elephant's footsteps. Very motivated, I continue my journey. After years we keep finding new evidences: nails, a broken tusk, at some point we even see the remains of a dead elephant!

The journey is long. In fact I'm not sure if it is ever gonna end! The guy gives me hope, he says it's gonna end. But it doesn't really matter. It just gets more interesting, every day I'm discovering something new. My previous life seems too boring when I look at it. I have no intention to return even if I know I'll die here and never see the elephant.

There are several points in the analogy that I want to emphasis on:

1. I didn't let the nonsense from 99% percent of the people around me who falsely claimed they have seen the elephant lead me to forget about the elephant altogether. Very few people who seemed somehow wise to me, convinced me to give it a try and not reject the elephant as a total fantasy.
2. I actually started moving, I wasn't convinced at all that the elephant exists. But I gave it a try anyway, mostly because of those 1% who didn't seem to be outright stupid in their belief and my own curiosity.
3. I trusted someone, I had to do that. Otherwise I didn't know where to go. But I was very careful with who I'm going with, because the 99% ignorant were all claiming that they can show me the way. I spent a lot of time to find that person.
4. The journey was a bit tough, some persistence was needed!
5. After a while, I could actually see some actual evidence and know about the elephant, this greatly encouraged me in my journey.
6. I believed in the existence of the elephant only after I saw the footstep. So I first needed the knowledge before believing.
7. At the end although I have hope that I will see the elephant, I have no intention to return to my previous life. I prefer to be in journey my whole life rather than returning to my previous life.

Sorry for the long post! I'm looking forward to know what you guys think about it. Rolleyes

The concept of knowledge rest logically and exclusively on the primacy of existence principle. The notion of gods assumes the primacy of consciousness view of reality. Therefore to say that one has knowledge of God is to say one has knowledge that is a negation of the very concept of knowledge.

Your analogy is very bad. God is not like an elephant, which is a real thing. It is a product of the imagination, therefore there is no evidence to look for.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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26-06-2017, 01:05 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(25-06-2017 05:21 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Today's "The Atheist Experience" had a call that had bearing on this. It starts just after the 1:02 mark and runs for about 20 minutes. If you can't communicate the "divine sense" and you can't verify it against our shared reality then it can't be trusted.




Did you listen to the caller after this caller? Hobo

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26-06-2017, 05:43 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(26-06-2017 01:05 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(25-06-2017 05:21 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Today's "The Atheist Experience" had a call that had bearing on this. It starts just after the 1:02 mark and runs for about 20 minutes. If you can't communicate the "divine sense" and you can't verify it against our shared reality then it can't be trusted.




Did you listen to the caller after this caller? Hobo

Yep. It is amazing how thoroughly indoctrination keeps them from seeing basic logic fallacies.

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26-06-2017, 05:50 AM (This post was last modified: 26-06-2017 06:03 AM by Peebothuhul.)
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
At work.

The caller? 'Chuck'? Is a longtime/regular nut-bar/gigglefest/sh!t-sturrer.

Basically I would label 'Chuck' a 'Troll'.
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26-06-2017, 06:22 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(26-06-2017 05:50 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

The caller? 'Chuck'? Is a longtime/regular nut-bar/gigglefest/sh!t-sturrer.

Basically I would label 'Chuck' a 'Troll'.

Well, since i dove into this world of atheism vs theism (forums, YT, etc.) i was shocked to see the border of poe/troll vs true idiot being constantly blurred over time. Facepalm

Tbh i never understood the point about being a troll/poe. Being a kid of the pre www age all this bullshit is pretty alien to me. If people have nothing better to do with their time...go ahead. The idiots at least are honest. I actually have more respect for those.

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26-06-2017, 06:49 AM (This post was last modified: 26-06-2017 09:43 AM by nosferatu323.)
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
Guys,

I have a question from you. I realize that I am and idiot. But some questions remain for me:

Please provide your "scientific evidences" that support the below propositions

- Being non-idiot is good in itself
- Being non-idiot is useful in itself
- Being non-idiot is necessary in itself
- Being non-idiot preferable to being happy and/or content and/or peaceful and/or harmless and/or any other human quality in any situation and for any human being.

Also,
- In case there are some certain conditions under which being non-idiot is preferable, please specify these conditions.

Maybe the state of non-idiot is just the way you define your own happiness? others define their own happiness differently? ha? What's your thoughts on this?
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26-06-2017, 07:18 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
At work.

Hello Nosferatu323.

Um... I am sorry, I don't quite understand your above post.

My happyness=/=reality or 'Truth'...

Unsure

My state of 'Happyness' is going to be completely, personally, subjective.

That the Earth orbits the Sun? Not subjective.

Consider
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26-06-2017, 07:23 AM (This post was last modified: 26-06-2017 07:26 AM by OakTree500.)
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(26-06-2017 06:49 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Guys,

I have a question from you. I realize that I and most likely all other theists are idiots. But some questions remain for me:

Please provide your "scientific evidences" that support the below propositions

- Being non-idiot is good in itself
- Being non-idiot is useful in itself
- Being non-idiot is necessary in itself
- Being non-idiot preferable to being happy and/or content and/or peaceful and/or harmless and/or any other human quality in any situation and for any human being.

Also,
- In case there are some certain conditions under which being non-idiot is preferable, please specify these conditions.

Maybe the state of non-idiot is just the way you define your own happiness? others define their own happiness differently? ha? What's your thoughts on this?
I'm not 100% sure on what you're trying to say here but I think you generally mean: "find me evidence to dis-proove that being stupid is ok?"

Generally speaking, and in my opinion only, you don't NEED to be smart/clever or anything like that. In fact, its arguable that the idiots of the world are generally more happy that those who actually understand what's going on.

I would only say you should be trying to better yourself, by understanding as much as you can, [Of Life, The World, The solar system, everything etc] so you understand/can appreciate a little bit more.

Am I happy 100% of the time? No I'm not. But that's life for you, it's not supposed to be all roses. I can also handle like 99% of any situation with control/respect for others/prior knowledge of various things. And it's that which is the difference between: running around screaming in a burning building and knowing what to do when an emergency strikes.

Being a "non-idiot" is useful in many ways, the most important one being survival. Ever heard of the Darwin Awards? You should check it out; stupid people getting them selves killed for being dumb.

That being said, there are enough idiots in the world to facilitate other idiots, so just say "fuck it" and do whatever you like.

I'd rather be clued up on any/all things I can potentially wrap my mind around just for the mere sake of knowing, that sitting in my own shit feeling happy for reasons I don't fully know, because "god" or "some gods" tell me to do something/my life means something to said deity(s).

"I don't do magic, Morty, I do science. One takes brains, the other takes dark eye liner" - Rick
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26-06-2017, 07:41 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(26-06-2017 07:18 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

Hello Nosferatu323.

Um... I am sorry, I don't quite understand your above post.

My happyness=/=reality or 'Truth'...

Unsure

My state of 'Happyness' is going to be completely, personally, subjective.

That the Earth orbits the Sun? Not subjective.

Consider

I don't know what "truth" and "reality" mean. If you can give precise definitions I can tell you if my happiness equals those things or not. I understand there is a subjective reality which is not "a thing" actually, it can be anything, someone's subjective reality might be that he is fish. And another reality which is portrayed by a the scientific community which is also not "a thing" it can be anything in any time, as science constantly evolves and changes. Although some propositions seem to hold true for very long periods of time. Like the Earth being a spheroid. But the overall body of the "scientific reality" is constantly evolving. So it is not "a thing" also and cannot have a time-invariant definition. But my happiness must rest on something that is time-invariant I suppose?

I think there is no such thing as "truth" it is equivalent to my elephant. If you have that word in your terminology, I assume you can join us idiots. We will accept you with warm hugs.

But, let's assume "reality" and "truth" are sensible and definite "things". I don't see any scientific evidence that supports the assertion that "happiness should be defined in a certain way"
Also, I see no evidence against the assertion "happiness can be defined in any way that the subject prefers"

I don't see any problem in getting my self killed for no reason (suicide?) it's perfectly fine as long as your happiness does not harm anyone. I find no evidence to suggest your happiness cannot be defined in a certain way.
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