An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
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26-06-2017, 11:14 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(26-06-2017 10:28 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  
(26-06-2017 09:56 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I agree I don't need this. But we alway need something right? When my loving parents deeply wish that I have some sort of belief in god so they can share their happiness with me, why not? I mean is it really THAT important to be non-idiot at all costs?

Well, no you don't NEED anything, it's all about self perception really.

Quote:Well, no you don't NEED anything, it's all about self perception really.
So what about "self improvement" I don't need that either? I thought you said that's kinda important for our happiness? Did I get you wrong?
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26-06-2017, 11:27 AM (This post was last modified: 26-06-2017 11:36 AM by sea_tiger.)
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
This was completely unnecessary. The more you expand and follow on it the worse you sound.
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26-06-2017, 01:53 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
I don't think you're stupid. I think you're gullible, and you're more interested in believing what makes you feel good rather than what is true.

The danger to this is that beliefs inform actions. The less well your beliefs represent reality, the more likely you are to make bad decisions for yourself and those around you. Whether you care about that is up to you. Unless nothing you do ever affects anyone, which is very unlikely, the second part is a moral consideration.

You've had to concede that this is all subjective, and as such it's not knowledge in any normal sense. You may be learning about yourself, or just exploring your own emotions. "God", in my opinion, is just a projection of the self. That's why it's different for each theist, why they all have such astounding levels of knowledge about something they can't even show exists or even define, and why it always agrees with them while they disagree with each other. And most importantly, it makes them feel special because they are the centre of its attention.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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26-06-2017, 02:49 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(26-06-2017 06:49 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Guys,

I have a question from you. I realize that I am and idiot. But some questions remain for me:

Please provide your "scientific evidences" that support the below propositions

- Being non-idiot is good in itself
- Being non-idiot is useful in itself
- Being non-idiot is necessary in itself
- Being non-idiot preferable to being happy and/or content and/or peaceful and/or harmless and/or any other human quality in any situation and for any human being.

Also,
- In case there are some certain conditions under which being non-idiot is preferable, please specify these conditions.

Maybe the state of non-idiot is just the way you define your own happiness? others define their own happiness differently? ha? What's your thoughts on this?

How about some anecdotal evidence?

Unless you don't care about continuing to survive, being an idiot is a handicap.

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27-06-2017, 02:59 AM (This post was last modified: 27-06-2017 03:19 AM by OakTree500.)
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(26-06-2017 11:14 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(26-06-2017 10:28 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  Well, no you don't NEED anything, it's all about self perception really.

Quote:Well, no you don't NEED anything, it's all about self perception really.
So what about "self improvement" I don't need that either? I thought you said that's kinda important for our happiness? Did I get you wrong?

OK, in my OPINION "self improvement" is something that will make you happy. Not that you NEED it, IE there should be a state force to make you improve yourself. I personally have found that improving ones self has increased my happiness and overall quality of life 10 fold.

Not that I follow any religion, but Buddhism teaches self control/self improvement over doing almost anything else, because once you improve yourself/your own life, you will have less problems to deal with.

When I say you don't NEED anything, I mean you won't die if you don't do it, plus your implication that you do NEED religion in your life, because of your parents or something equally as garbage. I believe you said "we all need something right?", well no some people have literally nothing [something I've witnessed first hand] and they are some of the happiest people on earth.

I think you need to think about things you WANT and things you NEED.

NEED = something I cannot live without, like oxygen or food.
WANT = Something I would very much like to have in my life, like a bigger house or lots of money.

We've had discussions like this before with many other people, "But what is happiness, blah blah blah" and it just goes round in circles. Nobody here can tell you what makes people happy, universally, as that would be stupid in itself as people are different.

If you enjoy your religion to the point of you WANT to be a bit of a dummy, then that's fine, go and do that. In all honesty if you have to ask "Why should I bother learning anything" then you probably have answered your own question, and you already know your own personal answer, so why bother asking a giant group of reasonably educated people?

Most of us are Educated because we WANT to be, that in itself makes us happy because we get something out of it: The mere knowledge of whatever we have studied/better grades for a better job etc. In my case I saw my own parents leave school with a shit education, and it got them nowhere. My mother failed all her tests, had to work 2 jobs and attend night school, whilst my father has working in a factory working 12 hour shifts his entire life. I decided that getting my head down and learning something would help me, and I turned my life around (See previous post on how "challenged" I was mentally at the time), all while my mother prayed for a better life that never came. Almost 20 years later she's where she wants to be, but through hard work and learning, not because somebody answered her prayers.

Since then I've picked up MANY things, gained interests in other areas that I would previously never have looked into, and have a great life to boot (decent job/wife/kids/house etc). That's not to say people with religion can't have these things too, but again on a personal level being educated over knowing 0 things about life has helped me to no end.

If you like what you're doing, and it genuinely makes you happy, then fair enough. Nobody here is going to stop you. But why not even at least look into something and see what happens? Most atheists, myself included, have read the bible cover to cover and THAT is why we all think religion is total garbage, because the book that supposedly supports the claim to it being "the one true religion" is full of shit and has no real evidence to back it up. We LEARN about everything. The world/the universe/religions, to the point of us being able to make up our own minds on these things.

I honestly could go on forever, and expect a smart arse response like the last one but:

TL;DR - Do whatever you want, just don't be a dickhead.

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27-06-2017, 03:59 AM (This post was last modified: 27-06-2017 04:02 AM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(26-06-2017 06:49 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I realize that I am and idiot.

Being an idiot is an inescapable part of the human condition. We all behave idiotically in some situations, and we are all idiots about some things. Luckily we are not idiotic in all situations or about everything, or else we couldn't get by. If our thoughts were too mismatched with realities, we or others get hurt or killed.

One trick of life is knowing enough about oneself to trust in oneself at the right times and not at others. We can learn to contribute to others in the ways in which we are best specialized to do so, and we can rely on the expertise of other specialized individuals.

However, you still have to understand that a certain percentage of people are liars. They are out to make you serve their interests, not yours. You have to learn to recognize and avoid them.
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27-06-2017, 09:13 AM (This post was last modified: 27-06-2017 09:39 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
You're seeing what you want to see, and what you were pre-conditioned to see.
The entire OP is the fallacy of the false analogy.
There is no coherent definition of the idea generally referred to as "gawd".
It's the height of arrogance.
IF there were such a being, ... saying one "could know" it, (somehow) is the most arrogant thing I've ever heard.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-06-2017, 09:36 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(27-06-2017 03:59 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  Being an idiot is an inescapable part of the human condition. We all behave idiotically in some situations, and we are all idiots about some things. Luckily we are not idiotic in all situations or about everything, or else we couldn't get by. If our thoughts were too mismatched with realities, we or others get hurt or killed.

I think that it's ignorance which is inescapable part of human condition. No matter how knowledgeable person is there always is more things that said person don't know than know. But that's not mean that person we talk about is idiot. Idiocy I think is willful and proud of it's unrealized stupidity.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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27-06-2017, 12:51 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
Response to OP.

Hey! I was on break when this thread heated up, but I'd like to respond to the OP if it's still relevant.

That footprint could be attributable to any animal that exists if we only have one set of evidence to rely on (the footprint.) In order to establish it is from some rare, legendary animal, we need something called corroborating evidence. In the scientific community, all findings must be verified via additional evidence, or other tests and experiments that yield similar, if not identical, findings to the original. One sided 'evidence,' is not evidence. This is the point of double-blind testing.

I'll put it this way, I don't believe in ghosts...

Doesn't mean I wouldn't love to see one! Smile

Regards!

~ The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you ~
-Neil Degrasse Tyson
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27-06-2017, 01:04 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(26-06-2017 08:06 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(26-06-2017 06:49 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Guys,

I have a question from you. I realize that I and most likely all other theists are idiots. But some questions remain for me:

Please provide your "scientific evidences" that support the below propositions

- Being non-idiot is good in itself
- Being non-idiot is useful in itself
- Being non-idiot is necessary in itself
- Being non-idiot preferable to being happy and/or content and/or peaceful and/or harmless and/or any other human quality in any situation and for any human being.

Also,
- In case there are some certain conditions under which being non-idiot is preferable, please specify these conditions.

Maybe the state of non-idiot is just the way you define your own happiness? others define their own happiness differently? ha? What's your thoughts on this?

Well I can speak from experience here. I was once a certifiable idiot. I mean I had the capacity not to be an idiot but I chose for a while at least not to use that capacity and believed what the preacher said in church. If I had to choose between that former state and now, I'd choose the way I am now, not that I'm any great genius or anything.

Okay I see this thread has changed. Other theists have posted this question before.

Ignorance is bliss... at least in some form. Being totally deluded into believing the world grows pizza for you during perpetual Unicorn Festivals would be a much happier existence than understanding that the world sits, finely and precariously balanced, between progress and decimation. No one can deny that.

The question then becomes a question of value. Do you value happiness, or truth?

If you knew your beliefs were delusional, would you continue to hold onto them for the sake of emotional comfort?

I actually think your answer to this question is highly relevant.

~ The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you ~
-Neil Degrasse Tyson
[Image: stairway_to_heaven_by_tomtr.png]
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