An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
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24-06-2017, 10:34 AM (This post was last modified: 24-06-2017 10:51 AM by sea_tiger.)
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
I don't know why but I want to share this:
Story of a musk deer-
Male musk deer produce a sweet scent and it is equally enchanted by its own scent.
The aroma of musk is so alluring that when the stag’s sensitive nose catches wind of it he roams the forest day and night in pursuit of its source. He exhausts himself in a fruitless quest, never realizing the bitter irony: the sweet fragrance he was chasing resided nowhere but within himself. Musk, you see, is produced by a gland in the stag’s very own navel:what it was searching for, was all along lying within.
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24-06-2017, 10:46 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
G'day mate, and welcome to the forums. Smile

(24-06-2017 06:06 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Hey all,

This is my first post here! Just a brief introduction:
I'd sum-up my religious view as "knowledge of God is possible"...

I appreciate the time you've given to your god/elephant analogy, but I can't really see it as apt.

As an atheist, my search for the elephant resulted in a positive outcome—I found a real-life elephant, and then moved on to other things in my life.

On the other hand, as a theist, your search for a god resulted in a negative outcome—you never found one. Even worse, some would say that you wasted your entire lifetime searching, and were needlessly diverted from moving on with the far more important stuff in your life.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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24-06-2017, 10:58 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 06:06 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I'd sum-up my religious view as "knowledge of God is possible".

Yeah, I spent over two decades on that assumption myself. No useful results.

Essentially, you are arguing for an esoteric concept of God -- a God who can only be perceived by mystics after traveling the necessary distance. You should ask yourself, "Why should anything supposedly important as God be as hidden as the elephant in this analogy?" If God really were that obscure, how could he be relevant at all? Relevance must be a two-way street. The distance between us and God proposed by the esotericists means their God is irrelevant. The only thing such a concept is good for is as a rationalization of why we don't perceive God much more easily. And that's apologetics, not an explanation.
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24-06-2017, 11:22 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
Quote:If you have knowledge, share it with the WHOLE world and save them from the loving treat your loving god has prepared for those who weren't so lucky to find the elephant, a footprint, or, much more probably, a huge pile of dung (elephant dung, of course Drinking Beverage ) - eternal torture. I mean, if you have knowledge of god and you don't help others avoid Hell, you'll be just as guilty, as those poor lost souls, wouldn't you.
When I asked the guy who guided me to describe the elephant and share his knowledge, he simply told me "this is not possible, you must see it for yourself, once you see it you will realize why it was not possible for me to share my knowledge with you" Although I haven't seen the elephant myself, but from the kind of evidences that I've seen, I still think this is the best answer, so I give you the same answer. If I do any attempt to describe the elephant I will just add one more nonsense to the descriptions that are already there. Describing colors for someone who is color blind or trying to show him evidences that colors exist is absurd,. The best thing you can do is somehow pursue him to give it a try and see if he can cure his illness. That's all that can be done for.

Quote:Also, why would a loving creator/parent make the "journey" to him so hard? If you have/had children, would you let them stumble through life, leaving cryptic notes in languages they don't speak around the house and then beating them bloody for not understanding those notes?
Once you get on the way, you gradually start to realize it's not hard to go along the way, it was never hard. But it takes some time until you realize this. No body will beat you, but maybe someday you'll realize the notes were actually not hard to read they just seemed hard and you never tried to read them, but you just had to try. Then you see other children who are being praised for reading those notes. You feel very humiliated and wish you would have tried it. That is hell and no one is throwing you in it.

Disclaimer: I do not intend to "prove" any of the points that I've mentioned. I just think it can be reasonable to start the journey without any evidence to begin with. I'm trying to express why I think it's reasonable.
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24-06-2017, 11:28 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 11:22 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Disclaimer: I do not intend to "prove" any of the points that I've mentioned.
So why are you here then?

The rest of it: it's not really knowledge then, is it? Your analogy was rather crappy in the beginning, now it's downright bunk. If this is all you've got, you're not gonna get far here.

What makes you think we haven't heard this vapid tripe HUNDREDS of time. Still as dumb as the first time.

Quote:Once you get on the way, you gradually start to realize it's not hard to go along the way, it was never hard. But it takes some time until you realize this. No body will beat you, but maybe someday you'll realize the notes were actually not hard to read they just seemed hard and you never tried to read them, but you just had to try. Then you see other children who are being praised for reading those notes. You feel very humiliated and wish you would have tried it. That is hell and no one is throwing you in it.

This makes almost no sense, but what little it does - I pray to your NON-EXISTENT god you never have children.

As for your hell, you can shove it where the sun doesn't shine. Anyone believing in infinite torture for finite crimes, is as big a moral vacuum as the made-up MONSTER they worship.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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24-06-2017, 11:29 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 11:22 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  When I asked the guy who guided me to describe the elephant and share his knowledge, he simply told me "this is not possible, you must see it for yourself, once you see it you will realize why it was not possible for me to share my knowledge with you"

So you're gullible and guy is bullshit artist who instead of saying what elephant is and how it look like and therefore illuminating you prefer to adorn it in trappings of mysticism.

Only difference between such hypothetical guy and priest is that guy could describe elephant as it is something that really exists. Priests are "forced" to wax lyrical bullshit about god they claim to exist as they can't to anything else.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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24-06-2017, 11:41 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 11:22 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  When I asked the guy who guided me to describe the elephant and share his knowledge, he simply told me "this is not possible, you must see it for yourself, once you see it you will realize why it was not possible for me to share my knowledge with you"...

So this is far removed from the scientist who shares his knowledge, and shows me a 60,000-year-old lizard fossil in order to prove that it once existed? You're apparently happy to accept the word of someone without any physical proof of his claim? If you're so trusting and/or gullible, I can understand why you accept the word of others—that gods can exist in the sphere of human reality. No theist has ever, ever seen, heard, or touched a god in all of recorded history. Why should you, after countless billions of people have already tried, expect a different, positive outcome?

Quote:Disclaimer: I do not intend to "prove" any of the points that I've mentioned. I just think it can be reasonable to start the journey without any evidence to begin with. I'm trying to express why I think it's reasonable.
Understood. But you should also apply the same diligence to seeking out the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or Russell's Teapot. Rolleyes

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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24-06-2017, 11:43 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 11:22 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Disclaimer: I do not intend to "prove" any of the points that I've mentioned. I just think it can be reasonable to start the journey without any evidence to begin with. I'm trying to express why I think it's reasonable.

You'd still, at least, need a clear sense of what would count as an elephant (ie, clear definition of what counts as a god for the purpose of your search), what would count as a strong sign of being on the right trail (ie, what sort of thing would count as evidence for that god), and what would count as a strong sign that there isn't an elephant (ie, what count as evidence against the god). You need these to know both when you're done looking and HOW to go about looking.

Sure, it's reasonable to begin searching when you don't have evidence. But it's not reasonable to begin searching when you don't even know where, when, how, why, and for what you're searching.

Otherwise, you might as well be off hunting zarks. ... no, I don't know what a zark is either, but who cares? Go hunt them in Antartica. No, I don't know if they're cold-weather critters... I don't even know if they're critters at all... but you might as well start there, right? Off you go!
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24-06-2017, 11:53 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 11:22 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  ....Then you see other children who are being praised for reading those notes. You feel very humiliated and wish you would have tried it. That is hell and no one is throwing you in it.

. . .some children read the notes and came to different conclusion than mentioned in the notes, some didn't agree with its content , some . . . .
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24-06-2017, 11:57 AM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 06:06 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  His words and overall wise character convinces me to give it a try and trust the guy.
In my experience, these are the people where you should be more on guard. Con-men come across as very nice and trustworthy.


(24-06-2017 06:06 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  But now I'm seeing an actual weird footstep. I say to myself: "this is something!"

keep finding new evidences: nails, a broken tusk, at some point we even see the remains of a dead elephant!
Getting out of analogy world, what would be considered as tangible evidence with regards to gods?
What evidence have you come across yourself?
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