An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
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24-06-2017, 01:16 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 01:13 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Go and check those mystics. I've done that and they told me their god is evident for everyone.

If those alleged "mystics" really said so then they lied.

Quote:In fact they say their god is the only thing that is evident.

Sure Rolleyes

Quote:The journey is necessary for "realization" not "discovery".

Or to say it plainly: indoctrination is necessary to believe in such bullshit.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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24-06-2017, 01:16 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 01:08 PM)Vera Wrote:  
(24-06-2017 12:59 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  If zarks is the same as my elephant, which is indefinite. That's fine. Go after it and don't stop.

See, I'd rather not waste the ONLY life I'm ever gonna have, running in circles, chasing some non-existent vague crap in the desperate hope I'm gonna get a much, much nicer eternal life after this one.

But to each their own. Your (brain's) funeral, not mine.

Ok. That's absolutely fine. No one is enforcing you to go. That was just a suggestion. As I said I'm enjoying the journey regardless of seeing the elephant or not and I find my previous life (the state of no-journey) very displeasing and undesirable at the moment.
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24-06-2017, 01:18 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 06:06 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Hey all,

This is my first post here! Shy Just a brief introduction:
I'd sum-up my religious view as "knowledge of God is possible". I was raised in a religious environment, but I wasn't religious except during my childhood. I can't say I converted, I just took the issue of God serious at some point in my life which led me to experiences that convinced me "knowledge of God is possible". English is not my first language, so excuse me for anything wrong in my English.

This is a talk about an alternative way to approach the issue of God. Which does not start with belief but starts with knowledge. I would like to know what you think about it. What I talk about is based on my personal experiences and some relevant religious traditions and philosophical views. Hope we can learn and express ourselves in a meaningful way in this thread.

I start it with an analogy, suppose elephant is an extremely exotic animal that is unique in every aspect. I haven't seen an elephant in my life, some people come and try to somehow describe the elephant. Very few people have seen it from very far distances and just describe it vaguely, someone has encountered it in darkness, he only talks about its voice. But 99% of them haven't seen the elephant, they just pretend that they have seen it and they just talk about their fantasies.

Irritated by these people ignorance, some day I decide to start the journey and see the elephant my self, to see if it really exists. But I don't know the way. I have to trust someone who claims he knows the way. Many people claim they know the way, but I know I must be careful, most of these people are outright delusional. I search for a long time for someone, there is a guy who tells me he has seen the elephant, but he doesn't say any nonsense like the others, in fact when I'm asking him questions he doesn't give me answers, he just says I've to see it myself and tells me he's ready to show me the way whenever I want. His words and overall wise character convinces me to give it a try and trust the guy.

We start moving. The journey starts to get tough, the guy gives me hope and tells me I won't be disappointed. I keep persist and move on. Just when I'm ready to give up and return to my life, we see very strange footsteps. The guy claims this is the elephant's footsteps. This is the first time that I know something about the elephant before this moment all that I knew was a bunch of nonsense that I had heard from people. But now I'm seeing an actual weird footstep. I say to myself: "this is something!" I believe that this is elephant's footsteps. Very motivated, I continue my journey. After years we keep finding new evidences: nails, a broken tusk, at some point we even see the remains of a dead elephant!

The journey is long. In fact I'm not sure if it is ever gonna end! The guy gives me hope, he says it's gonna end. But it doesn't really matter. It just gets more interesting, every day I'm discovering something new. My previous life seems too boring when I look at it. I have no intention to return even if I know I'll die here and never see the elephant.

There are several points in the analogy that I want to emphasis on:

1. I didn't let the nonsense from 99% percent of the people around me who falsely claimed they have seen the elephant lead me to forget about the elephant altogether. Very few people who seemed somehow wise to me, convinced me to give it a try and not reject the elephant as a total fantasy.
2. I actually started moving, I wasn't convinced at all that the elephant exists. But I gave it a try anyway, mostly because of those 1% who didn't seem to be outright stupid in their belief and my own curiosity.
3. I trusted someone, I had to do that. Otherwise I didn't know where to go. But I was very careful with who I'm going with, because the 99% ignorant were all claiming that they can show me the way. I spent a lot of time to find that person.
4. The journey was a bit tough, some persistence was needed!
5. After a while, I could actually see some actual evidence and know about the elephant, this greatly encouraged me in my journey.
6. I believed in the existence of the elephant only after I saw the footstep. So I first needed the knowledge before believing.
7. At the end although I have hope that I will see the elephant, I have no intention to return to my previous life. I prefer to be in journey my whole life rather than returning to my previous life.

Sorry for the long post! I'm looking forward to know what you guys think about it. Rolleyes

Why do you bother with an analogy? Why beat around the bush? Why not just show direct evidence for your god? It's that easy. Could it be... that you don't have any?
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24-06-2017, 01:19 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 01:16 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(24-06-2017 01:13 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Go and check those mystics. I've done that and they told me their god is evident for everyone.

If those alleged "mystics" really said so then they lied.

Quote:In fact they say their god is the only thing that is evident.

Sure Rolleyes

Quote:The journey is necessary for "realization" not "discovery".

Or to say it plainly: indoctrination is necessary to believe in such bullshit.

Someone referred to mystics and I quoted them. I don't believe in what they say and have no intention of defending their assertion.
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24-06-2017, 01:19 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 01:16 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Ok. That's absolutely fine.

Oh, so gracious of you. Drinking Beverage

Quote: As I said I'm enjoying the journey regardless of seeing the elephant or not and I find my previous life (the state of no-journey) very displeasing and undesirable at the moment.
If you're enjoying yourself so, what are you doing here, boring us stiff? Or do you, in your delusion, believe we, too, are in a "very displeasing and undesirable at the moment" in our lives? Hint: we are not and we don't need to be preached at.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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24-06-2017, 01:22 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
You say you're not here to prove anything, yet your replies say exactly that. If you're trying to "prove" your god or other gods exist, then you're wasting your time. You're not doing anything that many others haven't tried before.

Again, you're a theist who insists he has the Real Truth and if only we silly atheists would listen to you, we'd be better off. First, you like most theists assume none of us have ever been religious or that we somehow learned the wrong way. Like most theists, you're assuming none of us have tried our own journeys. You're wrong on both parts.

Instead of posting about how we're wrong and that we need a similar journey, why not learn about why we're atheists? Some here weren't raised in religion and never believed. Others (perhaps most) were religious. I'm not saying you shouldn't stay here, but you're attempting to change our minds. Like many before you, you're not going to succeed. All you're going to do in the end is waste your time and gain the ire of many here.

Relax, don't try to convert us, don't proselytize, offer actual proof (not "I felt it" or "You have to find it yourself"), and learn why.
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24-06-2017, 01:23 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 01:19 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(24-06-2017 01:16 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  If those alleged "mystics" really said so then they lied.


Sure Rolleyes


Or to say it plainly: indoctrination is necessary to believe in such bullshit.

Someone referred to mystics and I quoted them. I don't believe in what they say and have no intention of defending their assertion.

Looks like you have no intention of defending whatever drivel you're spouting. Think preaching will give you some jesus brown points? Or admiration of other believers who you will try to dazzle with story of bravely witnessing to godless heathens refusing to see the light?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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24-06-2017, 01:28 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 01:01 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(24-06-2017 12:53 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  If you are interested, find someone who claims he knows how this knowledge is obtained and you can trust him.

How do you know that you can trust this guy?

Quote:I didn't find it necessary in my journey. I rejected all the versions of the elephant that people were describing for me, and the guy how showed me the way didn't make any attempt to describe the elephant. He just told me there is an elephant and I won't be disappointed to start searching for it. I trusted him. Although I haven't found the elephant yet, right now the journey itself is enough for me to continue and not be bothered by the thought that "what if I never see the elephant"

So you're just gullible and you don't even see how elephant hunter/priest is using you. Seems entertaining story is more important than truth to you.

Quote:How do you know that you can trust this guy?
This is subjective. You can have your own set of criteria. Are you genuinely interested to know what are my criteria to know such a person is trustable? I don't think so.

Quote:So you're just gullible and you don't even see how elephant hunter/priest is using you. Seems entertaining story is more important than truth to you.
He can't be deceiving me he just told me "I won't be disappointed to start looking for the elephant" and did not try to tell what it is and he was right. He didn't made any unusual or special claim.

That might be true anyway, this might not be the "truth". But the journey just gets more interesting and my feeling of peacefulness is on an increasing trend and my trust in my guide is getting stronger. What do you want from life?
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24-06-2017, 01:31 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
At work.

Hello noferatu323! Big Grin

I would like to ask why your innitial example started off with 'Elephsnt' and not something else?

I am pseudo-poddy proof of possible weirdness..... (Sorry my avatar picture is so small and black and white..... writing implements are hard to 'tentacle' with Blush . Pushing buttons? So much easier. )

Would your example work as well if you postulated a P-Thuhlu?

Thumbsup
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24-06-2017, 01:34 PM (This post was last modified: 24-06-2017 01:37 PM by Szuchow.)
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 01:28 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  This is subjective. You can have your own set of criteria. Are you genuinely interested to know what are my criteria to know such a person is trustable? I don't think so.

You're right I'm not interested. I asked just to highlight your gullibility.

Quote:He can't be deceiving me he just told me "I won't be disappointed to start looking for the elephant" and did not try to tell what it is and he was right. He didn't made any unusual or special claim.

Sure, he can given that elephant is a god. He is scamming you into something you call "journey" and you hop right along cause you were indoctrinated. Possibility of elephant/god not existing apparently isn't something that you're willing to admit as it is religious opiate (journey) that get you going.

Quote:That might be true anyway, this might not be the "truth". But the journey just gets more interesting and my feeling of peacefulness is on an increasing trend and my trust in my guide is getting stronger. What do you want from life?

I want theists troll to make a little bit more sense. And quite a few other things of course, but I see no reason for telling you more.

Also it's not the first time that you mentioned how good your so-called journey is. Perhaps it is not us who you're trying to convince?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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