An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
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24-06-2017, 03:02 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 02:45 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(24-06-2017 02:38 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I think what ever that I say will be nonsense.

Right on point for once. What you are saying is nonsense.

Quote:You should see it for yourself, once you do, it will be clear for you why it can't be communicated by language.

So in other words you will find god only when you believe in him. Hilarious.

Quote:Describing color for someone who is color blind is nonsensical. You can just suggest him give it a try and find a cure.

Implying that people who don't share in delusion of something called god existence are lacking something? Though in a way you're right - such people lack gullibility necessary to buy into such ridiculous concept.

Quote:So in other words you will find god only when you believe in him. Hilarious.
I didn't mean that. You just need to start a journey to observe the evidence. belief is not necessary. In my personal experience my main motivation to start a journey was a trust in someone else which was enough for me to start.

Quote:Implying that people who don't share in delusion of something called god existence are lacking something? Though in a way you're right - such people lack gullibility necessary to buy into such ridiculous concept.

I also explicitly explained that the analogy of color blindness should not make you think that I mean you "lack" something. This is an analogy, and in this specific aspect the analogy is different from what I actually meant.
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24-06-2017, 03:06 PM (This post was last modified: 24-06-2017 03:48 PM by unfogged.)
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
Wow. I got out for a few hours and misss all the fun...

(24-06-2017 06:06 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  1. I didn't let the nonsense from 99% percent of the people around me who falsely claimed they have seen the elephant lead me to forget about the elephant altogether. Very few people who seemed somehow wise to me, convinced me to give it a try and not reject the elephant as a total fantasy.

When faced with wildly divergent stories about something it is smart to be skeptical that ANY of them are true.

Quote:5. After a while, I could actually see some actual evidence and know about the elephant, this greatly encouraged me in my journey.

Here's the big difference... the evidence for the elephant is demonstrable to anybody. The "evidence" for a god is always subjective with no way to examine it or confirm it.

Quote:6. I believed in the existence of the elephant only after I saw the footstep. So I first needed the knowledge before believing.

People have casts of footprints from bigfoot so I'd question that specific example but I agree that the time to believe something is when there is actual evidence for it. I suspect we would disagree on what constitutes evidence though.

(24-06-2017 11:22 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  When I asked the guy who guided me to describe the elephant and share his knowledge, he simply told me "this is not possible, you must see it for yourself, once you see it you will realize why it was not possible for me to share my knowledge with you"

That's when you walk away from an obvious con artist.

Quote:Describing colors for someone who is color blind or trying to show him evidences that colors exist is absurd,.

You can demonstrate to a color blind person that you can reliably distinguish between objects by a thing you call color even if they can't see it. You can build equipment that can reliably identify colors by the wavelengths of the radiation with no subjective or mystical input needed. Please show anything even remotely similar to demonstrate that a god exists.

Quote:Disclaimer: I do not intend to "prove" any of the points that I've mentioned.

Most of the people here base their beliefs on evidence. If you simply intend to make claims about your subjective beliefs then please find a theistic forum where they applaud having unsubstantiated positions.

Quote: I just think it can be reasonable to start the journey without any evidence to begin with. I'm trying to express why I think it's reasonable.

It is not, in my opinion anyway, reasonable to begin a search for something for which you have no rational basis to assume exists.

(24-06-2017 01:52 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I'm using this space to express my self and to know what atheists think about my journey.

Personally, I think you are wallowing in self-delusion. As George Bernard Shaw said, "The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality of happiness, and by no means a necessity of life."

(24-06-2017 02:38 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I think what ever that I say will be nonsense.

We agree on that anyway.

Quote: Describing color for someone who is color blind is nonsensical.

No, it isn't. They may never be able to directly experience it but they can understand the concept and, at the very least, be shown that something is there that others can detect. We can even determine why they can't.

Quote:Seeing the evidence is a natural consequence of moving in the journey and the impossibility of it being expressed using language is the very nature of the evidence.

The simpler reason is that it's all just subjective bullshit and wishful thinking. That we have evidence for.

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24-06-2017, 03:06 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 03:02 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I didn't mean that. You just need to start a journey to observe the evidence. belief is not necessary. In my personal experience my main motivation to start a journey was a trust in someone else which was enough for me to start.

Nonsense you speak about is just another name for indoctrination. Fact that you call it differently does not change a thing.

Quote:I also explicitly explained that the analogy of color blindness should not make you think that I mean you "lack" something. This is an analogy, and in this specific aspect the analogy is different from what I actually meant.

The analogy is shit. Just as the idiocy about cure - it's not unbelievers who are gullible ones and need cure to purge drug of belief from their system.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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24-06-2017, 03:09 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 02:58 PM)julep Wrote:  
(24-06-2017 02:38 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I think what ever that I say will be nonsense. You should see it for yourself, once you do, it will be clear for you why it can't be communicated by language.

Describing color for someone who is color blind is nonsensical. You can just suggest him give it a try and find a cure.

This is just an analogy, I don't mean you have any kind of "problem" that you can't understand what I have seen. I don't really mean it. Seeing the evidence is a natural consequence of moving in the journey and the impossibility of it being expressed using language is the very nature of the evidence.

Can't describe color for someone who is color blind? Why not? Someone who is color blind still can see objects and intensities and contrasts, light and shadows and understands those concepts. Birds can see a bunch more colors than humans can, and while I can't see the way a bird does, I can imagine to an extent. I can even imagine some scientist someday figuring out how to give bird color perception to people--wouldn't that be cool?

You're the person who claims evidence that led you to knowledge. At least if you took a real run at presenting that evidence and the way it connected the dots for you, you'd have made a case for others to make a journey of their own. So far you have not made the journey sound interesting or worthwhile.

Try again.

I have no evidence to provide for you. I'm just suggesting that you will find the evidence of your own once your start your own journey and that evidence will be more than enough for you. You can of course consider me a liar. There is nothing I can do about it.

Ok let's say describing colors for someone who is blind (=the visual cortex of their brain does not work), you can only suggest him to give a try and find a cure (just assume there is a cure). What kind of evidence of color can you give him!?

Again, I'm not implying you "lack" something, this is merely an analogy.
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24-06-2017, 03:12 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 03:09 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  You can of course consider me a liar.

We consider you a dishonest proselytiser with nary an original thought in your head. Or any, really.

Quote:There is nothing I can do about it.

Yes there is. You can bugger off.

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24-06-2017, 03:14 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 03:09 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I have no evidence to provide for you.

That was obvious from the beginning.

Quote:I'm just suggesting that you will find the evidence of your own once your start your own journey and that evidence will be more than enough for you.

I wonder why you assume that other will share in your gullibility? There is no reason for even starting the "journey", other that indoctrination which unfortunately tend to stick.

Quote:Ok let's say describing colors for someone who is blind (=the visual cortex of their brain does not work), you can only suggest him to give a try and find a cure. What kind of evidence of color can you give him!?

Again, I'm not implying you "lack" something, this is merely an analogy.

If you aren't implying lack then why use analogy that explicitly talks about lack?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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24-06-2017, 03:16 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
Share some evidence you found in your journey.(not to convince us)
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24-06-2017, 03:22 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 03:14 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(24-06-2017 03:09 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I have no evidence to provide for you.

That was obvious from the beginning.

Quote:I'm just suggesting that you will find the evidence of your own once your start your own journey and that evidence will be more than enough for you.

I wonder why you assume that other will share in your gullibility? There is no reason for even starting the "journey", other that indoctrination which unfortunately tend to stick.

Quote:Ok let's say describing colors for someone who is blind (=the visual cortex of their brain does not work), you can only suggest him to give a try and find a cure. What kind of evidence of color can you give him!?

Again, I'm not implying you "lack" something, this is merely an analogy.

If you aren't implying lack then why use analogy that explicitly talks about lack?


Quote:If you aren't implying lack then why use analogy that explicitly talks about lack?
I couldn't find a better way to express it.

Quote:I wonder why you assume that other will share in your gullibility? There is no reason for even starting the "journey", other that indoctrination which unfortunately tend to stick.
Ok, don't do it. I'm not intending to persuade you and I cannot do that. I'm merely suggesting and I respect your opinion that my suggestion is nonsense or whatever.
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24-06-2017, 03:22 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 03:09 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(24-06-2017 02:58 PM)julep Wrote:  Can't describe color for someone who is color blind? Why not? Someone who is color blind still can see objects and intensities and contrasts, light and shadows and understands those concepts. Birds can see a bunch more colors than humans can, and while I can't see the way a bird does, I can imagine to an extent. I can even imagine some scientist someday figuring out how to give bird color perception to people--wouldn't that be cool?

You're the person who claims evidence that led you to knowledge. At least if you took a real run at presenting that evidence and the way it connected the dots for you, you'd have made a case for others to make a journey of their own. So far you have not made the journey sound interesting or worthwhile.

Try again.

I have no evidence to provide for you. I'm just suggesting that you will find the evidence of your own once your start your own journey and that evidence will be more than enough for you. You can of course consider me a liar. There is nothing I can do about it.

Ok let's say describing colors for someone who is blind (=the visual cortex of their brain does not work), you can only suggest him to give a try and find a cure (just assume there is a cure). What kind of evidence of color can you give him!?

Again, I'm not implying you "lack" something, this is merely an analogy.

Someone who is blind can still understand the science of color and understands the concept of sense perception. Can feel the difference between hard and soft, fuzzy and smooth, loud and soft, fast and slow. When you say that we as your readers won't understand if you lay out for us what was evidence for you, you seem to be denying that we have the capacity to understand this evidence...that no one here has ever gone on a journey or tried to assemble knowledge from little pieces of data, or sought out a teacher or guide for a daunting project.

If we are incapable of understanding your description and interpretation of your experience, you are wasting your time here.

If you're incapable of providing such a description and interpretation, you are wasting our time here.
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24-06-2017, 03:25 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 03:22 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Ok, don't do it. I'm not intending to persuade you and I cannot do that. I'm merely suggesting and I respect your opinion that my suggestion is nonsense or whatever.

Your suggestion is nonsense and you are no different from tens of theist trolls that came here with equally unoriginal and unconvincing arguments. Obviously you can't persuade me and I suspect anyone else here when all you have to offer is space wizard hidden behind elephant guise and "evidence" that cannot be explained by language.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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