An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
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24-06-2017, 03:26 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 03:16 PM)sea_tiger Wrote:  Share some evidence you found in your journey.(not to convince us)

I having nothing to share with you other than suggesting that you will find the evidence if you start you own journey, once you find it you will know why it cannot be expressed. Just like colors cannot be expressed in any meaningful way for someone who is blind. I must note that I don't mean you "lack" something right now so you can't understand it. This aspect of the analogy is not intended.
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24-06-2017, 03:30 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 03:22 PM)julep Wrote:  
(24-06-2017 03:09 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I have no evidence to provide for you. I'm just suggesting that you will find the evidence of your own once your start your own journey and that evidence will be more than enough for you. You can of course consider me a liar. There is nothing I can do about it.

Ok let's say describing colors for someone who is blind (=the visual cortex of their brain does not work), you can only suggest him to give a try and find a cure (just assume there is a cure). What kind of evidence of color can you give him!?

Again, I'm not implying you "lack" something, this is merely an analogy.

Someone who is blind can still understand the science of color and understands the concept of sense perception. Can feel the difference between hard and soft, fuzzy and smooth, loud and soft, fast and slow. When you say that we as your readers won't understand if you lay out for us what was evidence for you, you seem to be denying that we have the capacity to understand this evidence...that no one here has ever gone on a journey or tried to assemble knowledge from little pieces of data, or sought out a teacher or guide for a daunting project.

If we are incapable of understanding your description and interpretation of your experience, you are wasting your time here.

If you're incapable of providing such a description and interpretation, you are wasting our time here.

Quote:If we are incapable of understanding your description and interpretation of your experience, you are wasting your time here.
I think you're being right. The discussion seems to be exhausted an I'm just repeating myself. I have nothing to add to what've already said.
I appreciate everyones's answer.
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24-06-2017, 03:33 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
I am in a journey, we all are. I can call it spiritual.What specific journey are you pointing to?
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24-06-2017, 03:36 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 03:09 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I have no evidence to provide for you. I'm just suggesting that you will find the evidence of your own once your start your own journey and that evidence will be more than enough for you. You can of course consider me a liar. There is nothing I can do about it.

I don't consider you a liar; I've met too many with similar views to doubt that you believe what you say. The problem is that what you are saying is nonsense. "Evidence" is demonstrable and testable and can be examined by multiple people. The subjective experiences that you are labeling "evidence" is an abuse of the term.

Quote:Ok let's say describing colors for someone who is blind (=the visual cortex of their brain does not work), you can only suggest him to give a try and find a cure (just assume there is a cure). What kind of evidence of color can you give him!?

I can show him which object I call red and which I call blue and leave the room and let him move things around. I will be able to consistently identify which is which. I can explain how the EM spectrum works and show how receptors in the eye react to different wavelengths providing a solid basis for understanding exactly how to build a color detector even if he can't see the colors.

How do I build a god detector?

Quote:Again, I'm not implying you "lack" something, this is merely an analogy.

The problem is that elephants, and colors, are things that exist within the reality we experience and can be examined consistently. If I'd never seen an elephant but just heard descriptions there would be no natural laws broken in considering their existence. Based on when and where people claimed to have seen them I could make reasonable inferences on whether they were likely to exist and how best to verify it. This is especially true as more and more descriptions are examined and they tend to align.

God descriptions, on the other hand, are vague, contradictory, and generally violate the physical laws that we rely on. There is nothing to grasp onto to even begin to determine if one exists. What one person sees as a sign of god another sees as random chance or delusion and there's no test that can be used to show that it was, in fact, a god. Over time, as all claims seem to fit easily into the chance or delusion categories it becomes more reasonable to assume that's all it is.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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24-06-2017, 03:37 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 03:33 PM)sea_tiger Wrote:  I am in a journey, we all are. What specific journey are you pointing to?

A journey which is usually referred to as a spiritual journey and I'm suggesting that this journey does not require a belief in god. I'm also suggesting this journey can provide you evidences that you are looking for right now. But the journey is necessary to observe the evidences.
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24-06-2017, 03:38 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
Do we have a definition yet? Without one, you're literally seeking anything. You might as well hold up a fish bowl and call it God. How can you have knowledge about a completely undefined subject?

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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24-06-2017, 03:41 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 03:26 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I having nothing to share with you other than suggesting that you will find the evidence if you start you own journey, once you find it you will know why it cannot be expressed.

Confirmation bias rarely leads to a full understanding.

Quote: Just like colors cannot be expressed in any meaningful way for someone who is blind.

A person who is blind (or even just color blind) may never directly experience color but that does not mean you can't express the concept of color in any meaningful way. That's been explained multiple times by multiple people and yet you simply ignore it because it doesn't fit your narrative. If you can't express the concept of your god in any meaningful way perhaps it's because there's no actual meaning there.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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24-06-2017, 03:43 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
I agree that god is not needed and my life's journey encompasses many things.But what is different about my journey and what you are referring to?
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24-06-2017, 03:44 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
I'm out of this conversation. Nosferatu is purposely misunderstanding what we're saying. He's like most other theists who insist we're just ignoring "facts" and "proof," while insisting it's right there in front of us.

Too bad. I was hoping for actual discussion.
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24-06-2017, 03:52 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 03:43 PM)sea_tiger Wrote:  I agree that god is not needed and my life's journey encompasses many things.But what is different about my journey and what you are referring to?

I don't now, we might be on the same journey. You didn't tell me about your journey so I have no idea about it, but I told you about mine, does my journey resemble yours? I can imagine we are in the same journey without you "believing in god", that part is not necessary, I regard myself to be in the same journey as a genuine Buddhist (Buddhists don't use the term "god" or any kind of woo in the formulation of their beliefs).

Anyway, your question is intriguing for me "what distinguishes a spiritual journey?" I'll give it more thought and return if I had an answer for it.
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