An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
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24-06-2017, 05:42 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 03:26 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I having nothing to share with you other than suggesting that you will find the evidence if you start you own journey, ...
How is this different from the standard insistence that one must "just believe" whatever the person is advocating that you believe? Not at all, near as I can tell.
(24-06-2017 03:26 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  ... once you find it you will know why it cannot be expressed. Just like colors cannot be expressed in any meaningful way for someone who is blind.
Anything worth knowing CAN and MUST be expressible ... otherwise it doesn't even constitute knowledge.

And by the way, this tired old chestnut about there being no way to describe color to a blind person is not an analogy that holds, either. You most certainly can evidence color to a blind person and describe what it is and demonstrate conclusively that it exists. Because color is a property of things that can be evidenced ... unlike a deity.

Of course a totally blind person will not have the same subjective experience of what it is to experience a particular color as a sighted person, but that's quite beside the point of whether there's an evidential basis for it.
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24-06-2017, 05:46 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 04:05 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(24-06-2017 03:54 PM)sea_tiger Wrote:  Let me frame the question.
Q: How would I know my journey is spiritual?

I got it. I just don't have any good answer for it right now. Would you accept if I say: you are in a spiritual journey when you are aware that you are in a spiritual journey. I'm aware it's a logically flawed definition but it might be useful.
If it's logically flawed then it is NOT useful.

"I'm on a spiritual journey because I say so".

"I'm god incarnate because I say so".

"You should give me money because I say so".

These all fall into the same category that should be rejected out of hand by any thinking person.
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24-06-2017, 06:27 PM (This post was last modified: 24-06-2017 06:33 PM by nosferatu323.)
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 05:05 PM)sea_tiger Wrote:  Useful if they are indefinite?Makes no sense.
Please give some example to explain it.
I am getting no info out of it.

As an analogy, consider the experience of the fear of unknown. Everything is scary as long as it is indefinite (it's in darkness for example) as soon as you make it definite (turning on the lights) it looses its usefulness in terms of being scary.

Similarly, everything can be your spirituality/god/transcendent being/etc. as long as you subjectively recognize it as spirituality/god/transcendent being/etc. as soon as you define it and try to completely bring it into the objective realm it loses its effectiveness. Which means you start to lose faith in your spirituality/god/transcendent being/etc. it becomes useless for you. It can no longer serve you to pursue your journey.

As I said, if I was aquatinted with your subjective mind, maybe I could have make a good guess for your spirituality. But I think you can do it yourself very well.

In the analogy of elephant, I left the elephant absolutely blank. I didn't assume anything about it and this assumption was not required to start my journey. I just needed a name and someone trustworthy to tell me he can show it to me. But there is no harm in assuming something about it, but you should not make it completely definite. If you are assuming something about it, you should be ready to throw away your assumptions when needed, otherwise you'll be stopped in your journey when you find out that the evidences that you are seeing in your journey do not match the characteristics of the elephant in your mind.

This is as far as I can go with language to express what I mean at the moment.
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24-06-2017, 06:40 PM (This post was last modified: 24-06-2017 06:44 PM by nosferatu323.)
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 05:42 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(24-06-2017 03:26 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I having nothing to share with you other than suggesting that you will find the evidence if you start you own journey, ...
How is this different from the standard insistence that one must "just believe" whatever the person is advocating that you believe? Not at all, near as I can tell.
(24-06-2017 03:26 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  ... once you find it you will know why it cannot be expressed. Just like colors cannot be expressed in any meaningful way for someone who is blind.
Anything worth knowing CAN and MUST be expressible ... otherwise it doesn't even constitute knowledge.

And by the way, this tired old chestnut about there being no way to describe color to a blind person is not an analogy that holds, either. You most certainly can evidence color to a blind person and describe what it is and demonstrate conclusively that it exists. Because color is a property of things that can be evidenced ... unlike a deity.

Of course a totally blind person will not have the same subjective experience of what it is to experience a particular color as a sighted person, but that's quite beside the point of whether there's an evidential basis for it.

Quote:How is this different from the standard insistence that one must "just believe" whatever the person is advocating that you believe? Not at all, near as I can tell.
I think it is different. In the analogy of elephant I did not have any belief in the elephant before starting my journey. It was only after finding the evidence that I believed. I did not need the belief to start the journey.
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24-06-2017, 07:00 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
Oh what a tangled web of shit we weave, when first we practise to believe. Drinking Beverage

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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24-06-2017, 07:58 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 12:53 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Thanks for your modifications! I agree that the analogy is bad on many levels. This was just as far as I could go to express it using language.

Regarding definition,
I didn't know of any "correct" definition of elephant when I started my journey and I still don't and I don't think I'll ever need one. I'm finding evidences one by one, gradually gaining more knowledge of the elephant, yet I don't now its definition and when I finally find it a definition would be useless!

If you don't even have a basic idea of what does or doesn't count as an elephant, what's to stop you from seeing a giraffe, deciding it's an elephant, and deciding your search is finished?

Similarly, if you don't even know what a god is, what's to stop you from seeing, say, the sun and deciding it's a god? Or lightning? (Both of these have been interpreted as gods many times over. Nowadays, we know them as being nothing more than plasma.) Or perhaps you might think a rock is a god, which is also something people have believed before. You might even believe that Prince Phillip is a god which, yes, is an actual religion.

So you might not need to know every last detail about the god you're setting out to look for. But you'd at least need to have enough of a definition to have an idea of what would or wouldn't count as a god. Otherwise, you'd just be pointing to things at random and saying, "LOOK! A GOD!" And what kind of search would that be?

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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24-06-2017, 08:10 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 07:58 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  If you don't even have a basic idea of what does or doesn't count as an elephant, what's to stop you from seeing a giraffe, deciding it's an elephant, and deciding your search is finished?

And that, my friend, is a VITAL distinction. 'Cause horses get majorly spooked by elephants and don't give two shits about giraffes. And that's the voice of (concussed and bruised-bottomed) experience speaking here.

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24-06-2017, 08:30 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 07:58 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(24-06-2017 12:53 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Thanks for your modifications! I agree that the analogy is bad on many levels. This was just as far as I could go to express it using language.

Regarding definition,
I didn't know of any "correct" definition of elephant when I started my journey and I still don't and I don't think I'll ever need one. I'm finding evidences one by one, gradually gaining more knowledge of the elephant, yet I don't now its definition and when I finally find it a definition would be useless!

If you don't even have a basic idea of what does or doesn't count as an elephant, what's to stop you from seeing a giraffe, deciding it's an elephant, and deciding your search is finished?

Similarly, if you don't even know what a god is, what's to stop you from seeing, say, the sun and deciding it's a god? Or lightning? (Both of these have been interpreted as gods many times over. Nowadays, we know them as being nothing more than plasma.) Or perhaps you might think a rock is a god, which is also something people have believed before. You might even believe that Prince Phillip is a god which, yes, is an actual religion.

So you might not need to know every last detail about the god you're setting out to look for. But you'd at least need to have enough of a definition to have an idea of what would or wouldn't count as a god. Otherwise, you'd just be pointing to things at random and saying, "LOOK! A GOD!" And what kind of search would that be?

Quote:If you don't even have a basic idea of what does or doesn't count as an elephant, what's to stop you from seeing a giraffe, deciding it's an elephant, and deciding your search is finished?
You forgot about the guy who was accompanying me. He was quite essential in the analogy. I never stop searching until he tells me we have found the elephant. After finding evidences and learning that he is taking me in the right path, I have a super strong trust in him.
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24-06-2017, 08:48 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 08:30 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  You forgot about the guy who was accompanying me. He was quite essential in the analogy. I never stop searching until he tells me we have found the elephant. After finding evidences and learning that he is taking me in the right path, I have a super strong trust in him.

Come back and talk with us again when you know something yourself. Until then, it's all hypothetical knowledge.
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24-06-2017, 09:58 PM
RE: An Alternative: Knowledge instead of Belief
(24-06-2017 06:40 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
Quote:How is this different from the standard insistence that one must "just believe" whatever the person is advocating that you believe? Not at all, near as I can tell.
I think it is different. In the analogy of elephant I did not have any belief in the elephant before starting my journey. It was only after finding the evidence that I believed. I did not need the belief to start the journey.
Except that you have not produced any evidence (or at least not anything that can properly be termed "evidence"). Your "evidence" is simply personal subjective experience that cannot be shared because it is in between your ears only. That is NOT evidence of any sort.

Nor is it at all novel that you did not have belief before engaging in confirmation bias. That is what believers mean by "you just have to believe". It is simply willfully being credulous and engaging in confirmation bias, which builds a false narrative to afford belief to.

The proper stance is one of neutrality toward any truth claim, applying skepticism in examining evidence, attempting not to prove but to falsify the thing you are considering (the existence of a deity in this case). If, after repeated attempts, you cannot disprove a falsifiable proposition, then and ONLY then is it a candidate to afford belief to.

If you don't have a falsifiable proposition in the first place, of course, then you can neither prove nor disprove anything and you default to unbelief. That is where atheists are coming from. Invisible beings and realms are claimed, not evidenced, and can not be falsified, therefore cannot be properly believed.
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