An Atheist Theory of God
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
07-04-2012, 03:07 AM
RE: An Atheist Theory of God
(06-04-2012 10:40 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hi! Thanks for your reply. I agree the bible is dangerous etc. I also agree the bible says some "comforting" things if one is credulous enough to believe them, although they are few and far between. I must disagree with you that this is why it has survived. In my opinion, the bible has survived because it is very useful propaganda for churches to use to control people.

Saint Paul, the father of Christian theology, doesn't think man is important.

Re "A poor atheist argument is one that makes sport of religious principles." That's a big generalisation.

I agree religion can kill you, but am not sure I understand your reasoning as to why we shouldn't make fun of it.

I'm sorry, you've lost me re Adam and Eve, and re "the distributed entity of my video".

Um....are you saying we are all part of God? If so, then god is us, a concept the "Christian" gnostics believed in, and one which, to my mind, is obviously true. Man has created god in his own likeness.
Religion is (in my opinion) ... the commercialization of spirituality. People sense that there is 'more' to them than inert chemicals (that their consciousness is something different than physicality) ... so, they seek an understanding of that. Religion provides them 'something' ... for a fee. Generally, it's a free ride through life on the backs of the believers for an 'elite' who converse with the deity and dispense His favors.

One should never make fun of one's enemies because it conveys moral-intellectual weakness. It is always possible to tailor-make an argument against an enemy proposition ... that reveals to that enemy his own undeniable guilt-error (provided that he is the guilty party) ... something he can't evade within his own mind. If you are making fun of him, it means you don't know what to do to get at him. When you hit that 'sweet spot' just right, he will either curse you or say nothing at all ... or ... physically attack you.

If consciousness is scalable beyond the individual human brain as I speculate it is ... then Adam and Eve represent a marginally defective part of that higher entity. So ... the only way to 'fix' the problem is to subject the parts to a testing procedure ... sort of a many are called but few are chosen proposition. If you were a higher entity and had the power to "learn" by experience, you'd be doing basically what all responsible individuals do ... try to improve yourself so you can experience existence to the fullest. If every individual on earth were rational, the super-entity could be a really good short order cook. If you've ever watched one do breakfast with a dozen orders going simultaneously you'd get that ;o)

I'm not all that familiar with the Gnostics. My speculation is that 'god' is a separate fully conscious unitary entity formed by compositing all individual humans. That is, half of you is you ... 'half' of you is god. As an atheist ... that's the last hiding place I can find for a god in the phenomenological world. I hope no one gets the idea that I believe ... anything. I've tried to believe things ... but ... I just can't do it. I can't blank out the inevitable questions.
____________________________________________

As an aside ...
I've often speculated that the 'Q' document or its equivalent was written by a woman ... around 100 AD. Clearly, the New Testament is a female philosophy that could not possibly have gotten any traction in that culture until the Romans castrated the Jews by destroying the temple in 66 and killing a few hundred thousand people. Mass killing generally takes the starch out of any culture.

Suppose some intelligent and probably wealthy Jewish woman has a son who is a decent fellow and he gets a hard-on for the Pharisees (because of their money-changing schemes and mal-influence on the culture). They get the Romans to kill him judicially ... she goes to the Roman governor to plead for him and is refused, of course (because the Pharisees are the Roman control dogs). So, she puts him in a story commemorating his problems and clothes him in the general god-man story of so many other cultures and ... she back dates the tome a hundred years to avoid problems in her present time ... voila! ... Christianity is born ... replete with feminine overtones.

The old Jewish philosophy is one of masculine domination while Christianity is most definitely feminine and submissive (turn the other cheek). And yes ... its leaders have all been men trying to twist it into a masculine domination thing ... but the words are definitely female. I wonder if there are others who have speculated that Christianity sprouted from a female.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-04-2012, 03:59 AM
RE: An Atheist Theory of God
(07-04-2012 03:07 AM)EBTX Wrote:  
(06-04-2012 10:40 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hi! Thanks for your reply. I agree the bible is dangerous etc. I also agree the bible says some "comforting" things if one is credulous enough to believe them, although they are few and far between. I must disagree with you that this is why it has survived. In my opinion, the bible has survived because it is very useful propaganda for churches to use to control people.

Saint Paul, the father of Christian theology, doesn't think man is important.

Re "A poor atheist argument is one that makes sport of religious principles." That's a big generalisation.

I agree religion can kill you, but am not sure I understand your reasoning as to why we shouldn't make fun of it.

I'm sorry, you've lost me re Adam and Eve, and re "the distributed entity of my video".

Um....are you saying we are all part of God? If so, then god is us, a concept the "Christian" gnostics believed in, and one which, to my mind, is obviously true. Man has created god in his own likeness.
Religion is (in my opinion) ... the commercialization of spirituality. People sense that there is 'more' to them than inert chemicals (that their consciousness is something different than physicality) ... so, they seek an understanding of that. Religion provides them 'something' ... for a fee. Generally, it's a free ride through life on the backs of the believers for an 'elite' who converse with the deity and dispense His favors.

One should never make fun of one's enemies because it conveys moral-intellectual weakness. It is always possible to tailor-make an argument against an enemy proposition ... that reveals to that enemy his own undeniable guilt-error (provided that he is the guilty party) ... something he can't evade within his own mind. If you are making fun of him, it means you don't know what to do to get at him. When you hit that 'sweet spot' just right, he will either curse you or say nothing at all ... or ... physically attack you.

If consciousness is scalable beyond the individual human brain as I speculate it is ... then Adam and Eve represent a marginally defective part of that higher entity. So ... the only way to 'fix' the problem is to subject the parts to a testing procedure ... sort of a many are called but few are chosen proposition. If you were a higher entity and had the power to "learn" by experience, you'd be doing basically what all responsible individuals do ... try to improve yourself so you can experience existence to the fullest. If every individual on earth were rational, the super-entity could be a really good short order cook. If you've ever watched one do breakfast with a dozen orders going simultaneously you'd get that ;o)

I'm not all that familiar with the Gnostics. My speculation is that 'god' is a separate fully conscious unitary entity formed by compositing all individual humans. That is, half of you is you ... 'half' of you is god. As an atheist ... that's the last hiding place I can find for a god in the phenomenological world. I hope no one gets the idea that I believe ... anything. I've tried to believe things ... but ... I just can't do it. I can't blank out the inevitable questions.
____________________________________________

As an aside ...
I've often speculated that the 'Q' document or its equivalent was written by a woman ... around 100 AD. Clearly, the New Testament is a female philosophy that could not possibly have gotten any traction in that culture until the Romans castrated the Jews by destroying the temple in 66 and killing a few hundred thousand people. Mass killing generally takes the starch out of any culture.

Suppose some intelligent and probably wealthy Jewish woman has a son who is a decent fellow and he gets a hard-on for the Pharisees (because of their money-changing schemes and mal-influence on the culture). They get the Romans to kill him judicially ... she goes to the Roman governor to plead for him and is refused, of course (because the Pharisees are the Roman control dogs). So, she puts him in a story commemorating his problems and clothes him in the general god-man story of so many other cultures and ... she back dates the tome a hundred years to avoid problems in her present time ... voila! ... Christianity is born ... replete with feminine overtones.

The old Jewish philosophy is one of masculine domination while Christianity is most definitely feminine and submissive (turn the other cheek). And yes ... its leaders have all been men trying to twist it into a masculine domination thing ... but the words are definitely female. I wonder if there are others who have speculated that Christianity sprouted from a female.
Re "Religion is (in my opinion) ... the commercialization of spirituality. People sense that there is 'more' to them than inert chemicals (that their consciousness is something different than physicality) ... so, they seek an understanding of that. Religion provides them 'something' ... for a fee. Generally, it's a free ride through life on the backs of the believers for an 'elite' who converse with the deity and dispense His favours."
JACKPOT! AND BEAUTIFULLY EXPRESSED!

Can't agree with you about not making fun of enemies. I reserve that as an option to make a point. I'm no good at it though LOL

Why, good sir, do you seem to feel the need to find a hiding place for god? It is so refreshingly "just right" to accept the fucker doesn't exist in any way, shape or form- certainly not as an entity that is in any way separate from our brains.

Re Q (you sure know how to jump from topic to topic...which is fine by me)...interesting theory that it was written by a woman....haven't heard that one before. Could be true.

Ok....I have to point a few things out here. You got me on one of my pet topics. Let's assume "Jesus" existed, and if he did, I'll call him by his real name, Yeshua (so as to distinguish him from the characters in the gospels). The Romans killed him, not the Jews. If there were Jews who wanted him out of the way, it was the Saducees (who were in bed with the Romans), not the Pharisees.

I agree the Judaic culture is misogynistic. Can't agree with you that Christianity is feminine though. That sort of idea is promoted by the church hierarchy you so beautifully describe. Christianity is a heady mix of ideas from "Jesus" (not Yeshua), Paul ,church fathers, Mithraism and scores of other cults that were floating around the empire at the time. The end product is not feminine.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-04-2012, 09:47 AM
RE: An Atheist Theory of God
(05-04-2012 01:39 AM)EBTX Wrote:  
(04-04-2012 03:21 AM)DLJ Wrote:  If consciousness exists at the macro / newtonian level then perhaps it should exist at the cosmic levels and the micro / quantum levels. But I see no evidence of this.

Conversely, if it does not exist at the quantum and cosmic levels, I start to question the nature of consciousness at the macro level rather than go for conscious super-being. Would there also be a conscious quantum-being?

On the other hand, if anyone can give me proof that the super-entity called culture has a consciousness, then I too will start believing in higher powers which (in a drunken or depressed state) I might even be tempted to call "god". :-)
I can't change my music or voice or anything to suit an audience because I make the thing just for me ... as an expression of my identity. I have no ability to alter or displace the ideas of others and so ... no longer try (from experience). If anyone learns anything from one of my videos, it is only because they had nothing in that place to begin with ;o)
------------------------------
There wouldn't be any consciousness at the quantum level (as we could perceive it) for lack of information. Lots of "stuff" is required for human level consciousness. But ... an electron "knows" what it's supposed to do ... somehow.

1 bit of information ... may ... = 1 bit of consciousness.

At the macro level, the consciousness that I speculate to exist ... would be slower operating while more extensive in content.
Macro = slow and information rich
Micro = fast and information poor

I can't prove that "culture" has a consciousness. I simply suspect that it does. A more interesting thought would be ... what is the information carrying capacity of that being?

We each create in our minds an avatar of every person we know. The more familiar we are with that person ... the more realistic is the avatar. Hence, we can communicate with that avatar and imagine what the real person would say in a given situation. I recall a man who lamented that when he died, his wife would be truly dead for then there would be no one left who knew her. He kept here alive as that avatar in his mind.

So, how much of an individual might survive death in the form of an avatar in the mind of the supposed distributed entity? We know for certain that some part of us survives death by incorporation into the culture ... else, culture would remain unchanged over millenial periods.

No, no, don't mention it. No need to show such sentimental gratitude. Any time. No problem. I really had nothing better to do than to heed your request.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-04-2012, 12:42 AM
RE: An Atheist Theory of God
(07-04-2012 03:59 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  1) Can't agree with you about not making fun of enemies. I reserve that as an option to make a point. I'm no good at it though LOL

2) Why, good sir, do you seem to feel the need to find a hiding place for god? It is so refreshingly "just right" to accept the fucker doesn't exist in any way, shape or form- certainly not as an entity that is in any way separate from our brains.

3) ... it was the Saducees (who were in bed with the Romans), not the Pharisees.

4) The end product is not feminine.
1) I've made lots of fun ... in the past ;o) As I got older, I realized that it doesn't accomplish anything of philosophical value ... so I try to avoid it.

2) It was refreshingly right for me too when I first decided that at 14. However, I have a higher obligation which is to consider any possibility I uncover. I don't get emotionally involved with my own ideas much ... because I've had to give them up as false more often than not. The overall ratio of good ideas to bad is about 1 to 100. So, when I say there may be a god of some sort ... it's just another idea to determine as true or false. I made a model of the photon before ... spent lots of time on it ... and ultimately had to discard it because I couldn't get it to polarize ... but it's not a 'crying' thing :o|

3) Hmmm ... one of those groups. I don't study history toooo closely because it's "written by the winners" and is always tainted. I'll take your word for it.

4) The base document of Christianity is completely feminine ... the four gospels only. All the rest is "fluff". All major religions have to have a thick book or they're not taken seriously. That's why Joseph Smith burned the midnight oil to get his tome to spec. The rule is ... "to be the actual Work of God, a good book must be at least three inches thick when the width and height are 12" and 16" respectively (monk-bound). That's why the New Testament is alloyed with the Old Testament ... it just wouldn't plump up enough so a graft was necessary (pun intended ;o)


Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-04-2012, 12:50 AM
RE: An Atheist Theory of God
It seems you spend a good bit of time on composing well thought out replies, EBTX. Please, do us a favor and stick around. We need more people who enjoy in depth discussion around here, even if it isn't the widely accepted stuff, it's nice to see varying opinions on the forums Smile
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Logisch's post
08-04-2012, 11:21 PM
RE: An Atheist Theory of God
Well, I don't think I'd post anywhere ... unless ... I have something different to say ... preferably something that will induce either thoughtful or hate-filled comments. In my years on the net (since '95), I've really enjoyed my hate mail ... especially when it's well thought out.

Here's a couple that are typical [with my comments]. I no longer maintain my website but I got most from Christians:
(I hope no one is offended by the F-words)

Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007
18:26:44 -0400 (EDT)

IMA CUT OFF YOUR ARMS AND LEGS, AND WATCH YOU SCREAM AND SCWIRM. FUCK
YOU!!!!!! I HATE YOU FUCKER! SUCK MY DICK. BETTER YET, I'LL CUT YOURS
OFF AND SHOVE IT IN YOUR MOUTH!!!!!!!!!! FUCK YOU FAGGOT!!!!!!!!! YOU
SUCK!!
[Uh, ... haven't we dated before?]

Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2005
15:46:41 -0400 (EDT)

FUCK YOU!! As a Christian I hate you cuz you are hateful! Didn't Jesus
say something in da Bible about something? I don't need to post da
bbible verse cuz I dun read da bible, it got to much words fer mes! FUCK
YOU!! I feel sorry for your wife an kids. I hope you die thogh or
somethin. I'm only 14 and I am so mad! FUCK YOU!! once and for all. FUCK
YOU!! Even I know your stupid and I hate you so much sicne you say the
racist word and you have penis on kiddie page. I'll pray for you. I hope
you die and go to Hell forever. I'll pray for you. I'm not hateful. you
are. I hate you.
[I think this is a fake hate letter. But it's a nice try and
put a smile on my face. If it's real ... Jesus is not a real person. Me
and the Pope agree on this one thing. He just won't tell you.]

Date: Sun, 8 May 2005
16:05:35 -0400 (EDT)

Thank God your days are so numbered. Burn iin hell...
[And you, dear christian ... burn in your heaven ... a far,
far worse place than anything I could ever possibly (maliciously)
invent.]

and my favorite among hundreds ...

Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004
18:41:27 -0500 (EST)

You stupid cocksucking faggot...do you really think anybody cares
about your nutlicking opinions? People like you should be deported to
Canada immediately, to live with your fudgepacking cousins. For fuck's
sake, you must have been abandoned as a fetus and molested by Jesus
fucking Christ himself. Take a swan dive and do us all a favor you wannabe
genius
[ All potential hate mailers ... observe the above piece. It's
exquisite. What workmanship. Tears spring to my eyes. Excellent length -
not too long or too short. General remarks are on topic with good
adjectives instead of just the common invectives ... even good spelling.
Thank you mucho!]

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: