An Atheist who Found God
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04-01-2017, 12:26 PM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
Well, I'll give you an example of a belief I hold that is not reasonable.

I think abiogenesis happens totally naturally, based on simple chemistry, and has no need for additional influences outside of the currently-known forces of nature.

I have reached this conclusion based on my observation of the known facts-- experiments like Urey-Miller, the ongoing work at NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab, life-precursors found in interstellar ice clouds and comets, and so on... as well as my observation that many of the things we once attributed to mystical/magical forces always turned out to be entirely natural, once we figured them out.

But I have not seen it 100% demonstrated that the formation of life did (or could) occur by natural processes. We have yet to break through that impasse.

Therefore, out of a preponderance of the evidence and the belief that I hold that there's no such thing as magic or any other forces beyond our ability to detect, I believe that natural chemical abiogenesis is the most likely explanation for the origin of life. [Edit to Add: Further, I find criticisms of the idea, such as Dembski's idiotic notions about "specified complexity" to not hold enough weight to overthrow my beliefs about the likelihood that there are no supernatural forces at play.]

I am okay with holding that belief without a solid reason, even when Creationists point out that gap and try to stuff their god into it.

I think people who try to attack me for holding what I consider to be a not-irrational belief to be assholes.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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04-01-2017, 12:26 PM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(04-01-2017 11:40 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  
(04-01-2017 10:07 AM)Aliza Wrote:  If you see a unicorn and you're unaware that you've been drugged, it's perfectly rational to conclude that there was a real unicorn there.

This is precisely why evidence of an event is needed before you believe the claim. If my sole basis for belief is based on my personal experience without any evidence to backup what I have observed, then it's NOT rational to believe what I have seen.

If I can't justify my observation with evidence then my observation of reality isnt consistent with reality, therefore something in my brain isn't functioning in such a way as to allow me to observe reality as close to 100% as is humanly possible.

If I see leprechauns dancing around in the backyard or hear bells that can't be recorded by any device nor heard by anyone else, then it's time for me to see a doctor. Something in my brain isn't functioning the way it should.

My experiences are irrational if I can't justify them with evidence.

If for whatever reason, I might enjoy seeing leprechauns play in the backyard and I understand that it's not real and accept it as a quirk of my brain, then so be it.

What about if you see your spouse, and he or she asks you to pick up milk at the grocery store. It's perfectly rational to believe that this has really occurred, and you don't need to check external evidence for every little thing. But, later, when you come home with milk, your spouse tells you that they never asked you to go the store. In this situation, let's say that there is no external evidence to validate your experience. You don't realize you were drugged, and you don't have a recording of when the encounter with your spouse was to have taken place.

Is it still rational to believe that you had this conversation with your spouse?
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04-01-2017, 12:45 PM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(04-01-2017 11:40 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If I can't justify my observation with evidence then my observation of reality isnt consistent with reality, therefore something in my brain isn't functioning in such a way as to allow me to observe reality as close to 100% as is humanly possible.

I have no idea what that means. Do you mean that if you have evidence of something then your brain is observing reality as close to 100% as humanly possible? What do you make of optical and acoustic illusions? Is your brain observing reality as close to 100% as humanly possible then?

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04-01-2017, 12:50 PM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(04-01-2017 11:03 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(04-01-2017 07:34 AM)Vosur Wrote:  While I can only speak for myself, I think it's fair to say that I'm not the only atheist on here who strongly disagrees with the notion that we respect theists like KC because their personal philosophies and theologies are somehow "complex and mature."

How can you even say that with a straight face?

You're welcome to your opinion. I can respect a person that I disagree with. I offer you the following thought experiment:

You are about to be condemned to 24 hours in a locked room with three other people. As you are marched to the end of the hall where this is to transpire you notice two doors. On one the names "KingsChosen", "Aliza", and "Shai-Hulud" are listed. The other features "Q", "TheBorg", and "CalloftheWild".

Choose wisely.
I also choose the latter I would fuck with their heads and gain a true understanding of the insane. Priceless!!!!!
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04-01-2017, 12:52 PM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(04-01-2017 09:41 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(04-01-2017 09:34 AM)tomilay Wrote:  It's also not cool to conflate disagreements with or criticisms of a person's world views with liking or disliking, respecting or disrespecting that individual person.
I never looked at it that way, and probably should have, you make an interesting point there tomilay.

Yep. It makes robust challenges of some ideas intimidating when these challenges are conflated with an attack on the person, especially one as popular as KC. Aside from the fact that KC obviously gets along with people here, he also openly identifies with views, which even by his own admission, are indefensible. Views which forums like this one are there to debunk.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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04-01-2017, 12:53 PM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(04-01-2017 12:50 PM)adey67 Wrote:  I also choose the latter I would fuck with their heads and gain a true understanding of the insane. Priceless!!!!!

All you have to do is compare their doctrines and break out the popcorn while they argue about which fantasy is truthier.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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04-01-2017, 01:20 PM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(04-01-2017 12:53 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(04-01-2017 12:50 PM)adey67 Wrote:  I also choose the latter I would fuck with their heads and gain a true understanding of the insane. Priceless!!!!!

All you have to do is compare their doctrines and break out the popcorn while they argue about which fantasy is truthier.

I would also rape their asses one by one with them looking on knowing the fate that awaited themEvil_monster Hobo
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04-01-2017, 01:20 PM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(04-01-2017 11:53 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(04-01-2017 11:03 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  You're welcome to your opinion. I can respect a person that I disagree with.
The crux of the issue is not whether or not you respect him, but why. I respect KC as well, but I do so in spite of his whacky beliefs, not because of them. I find it hard to believe that you differ from me in that regard. Aliza put it nicely in her post when she expressed the sentiment that the reason why KC is respected around here is that he's a good guy and an upstanding citizen rather than that his theology is admirable in some way. Maybe your wording was just ambiguous, but to me it sounded like you were saying that the merits of his theology are the primary reason why we respect him, a notion that is completely at odds with my experience on this forum.

You're right, I've muddled my meaning. I'll meet you half way here. Clearly I don't share KC or Aliza's beliefs, though I am willing to be more tactful about it because, as you say, I respect the individuals. That said, I stand by my earlier statement about respecting their mature and complex worldviews. They are intelligent, aware, and active in a forum that should be fundamentally at odds with their core beliefs. They are not dismissive, seeking validation from us, or trying to convert us like so many grains of rice. They are not our usual Sanday afternoon "god-thus-bible-thus-god-thus-bible-so-you-must-listen-to-Pascal's-Wager-YET-AGAIN-so-I-can-feel-sanctionious-about-trying-to-save-you-from-hell" witless wonders that we so love and cherish. Sorry about the faint praise. No freakiness for me I guess. Weeping

I may belive that their fundamental premises are wrong, but clearly they posess worldviews that are sophisticated enough to not only exist in an otherwise hostile environment without going into a full-blown dissonace tantrum but to also managing to be genuinely decent to us in spite of those fundamental points of disagreement. That is what I have to respect.

Quote:
(04-01-2017 11:03 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  I offer you the following thought experiment:

You are about to be condemned to 24 hours in a locked room with three other people. As you are marched to the end of the hall where this is to transpire you notice two doors. On one the names "KingsChosen", "Aliza", and "Shai-Hulud" are listed. The other features "Q", "TheBorg", and "CalloftheWild".

Choose wisely.
I choose Aliza. Wink

Given Aliza's shameless bribe of freakiness you'd be a fool not to.

Though I'm told that theBorg was seen with a large jar of peanut butter and a box of latex gloves. Hobo

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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04-01-2017, 01:28 PM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(04-01-2017 12:26 PM)Aliza Wrote:  What about if you see your spouse, and he or she asks you to pick up milk at the grocery store. It's perfectly rational to believe that this has really occurred, and you don't need to check external evidence for every little thing. But, later, when you come home with milk, your spouse tells you that they never asked you to go the store. In this situation, let's say that there is no external evidence to validate your experience. You don't realize you were drugged, and you don't have a recording of when the encounter with your spouse was to have taken place.

Is it still rational to believe that you had this conversation with your spouse?

This happens far too often. Never get grocery lists from people on the brink of sleep. Especially when they tell you to check and make sure the lightbulbs are ripe.

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04-01-2017, 01:30 PM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(04-01-2017 12:53 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(04-01-2017 12:50 PM)adey67 Wrote:  I also choose the latter I would fuck with their heads and gain a true understanding of the insane. Priceless!!!!!

All you have to do is compare their doctrines and break out the popcorn while they argue about which fantasy is truthier.

The devil on my shouder is saying, "Go ahead, you know you want to."

The devil on my other shoulder is muttering a warning about staring too long into the abyss.

---
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