An Atheist who Found God
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04-01-2017, 04:56 PM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(04-01-2017 03:59 PM)Peter Slevon Wrote:  And your evidence that alleged evidence is for real?
If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you can't prove anything at all.

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04-01-2017, 05:45 PM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
Tomilay:

My beliefs cannot be defended under certain terms. This being an atheist forum, I can't expect an atheist to accept the Bible or any theology as an authority.

On these terms, I can only defend empirical evidence, logic and ration.

Since my faith... and the very essence of faith... cannot be proved through any of the aforementioned, my only honest answer would be to state that faith goes against logic and rationale. There is nothing wrong with that because the terms are not the same. Same goes with Biblical authority... I don't waste time quoting the Bible to atheists because I might as well quote Tolkien.

As a person who is very self aware and aware of my audience, saying anything differently based on the majority terms which set up the debate is 100% dishonest.

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04-01-2017, 05:54 PM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2017 06:01 PM by excitedpenguin.)
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(04-01-2017 04:56 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(04-01-2017 03:59 PM)Peter Slevon Wrote:  And your evidence that alleged evidence is for real?
If you want to go down that rabbit hole, you can't prove anything at all.

That's why I think explanations matter more than evidence. A piece of evidence is worthless without an explanatory framework, its existence as evidence is unjustified otherwise. The explanation comes first, and it's Supreme.

Religion is a bad explanation for everything, of course. We have better explanations for anything covered by religion.

This is Popperism, fallibillism, David Deutsch's worldview, take your pick.

(this post is not really a reply to you so much as an aside)
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04-01-2017, 06:00 PM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(04-01-2017 05:45 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Tomilay:

My beliefs cannot be defended under certain terms. This being an atheist forum, I can't expect an atheist to accept the Bible or any theology as an authority.

On these terms, I can only defend empirical evidence, logic and ration.

Since my faith... and the very essence of faith... cannot be proved through any of the aforementioned, my only honest answer would be to state that faith goes against logic and rationale. There is nothing wrong with that because the terms are not the same. Same goes with Biblical authority... I don't waste time quoting the Bible to atheists because I might as well quote Tolkien.

As a person who is very self aware and aware of my audience, saying anything differently based on the majority terms which set up the debate is 100% dishonest.

If it went against logic and rationale you wouldn't actively believe in it, you'd merely feel something, but you wouldn't go to the extent of actually describing your experiences as being a part of this or that ideology.

You're a people person, it seems to me. That's a very winning strategy, granted, but at the same time you can't have both the people's hearts and the integrity of your beliefs. Something has to give. I think you're sacrificing the truth (your truth), and failing to examine your own beliefs in the process of doing this.
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04-01-2017, 06:47 PM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(04-01-2017 02:02 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(04-01-2017 01:20 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  You're right, I've muddled my meaning. I'll meet you half way here. Clearly I don't share KC or Aliza's beliefs, though I am willing to be more tactful about it because, as you say, I respect the individuals. That said, I stand by my earlier statement about respecting their mature and complex worldviews. They are intelligent, aware, and active in a forum that should be fundamentally at odds with their core beliefs. They are not dismissive, seeking validation from us, or trying to convert us like so many grains of rice. They are not our usual Sanday afternoon "god-thus-bible-thus-god-thus-bible-so-you-must-listen-to-Pascal's-Wager-YET-AGAIN-so-I-can-feel-sanctionious-about-trying-to-save-you-from-hell" witless wonders that we so love and cherish. Sorry about the faint praise. No freakiness for me I guess. Weeping

I may belive that their fundamental premises are wrong, but clearly they posess worldviews that are sophisticated enough to not only exist in an otherwise hostile environment without going into a full-blown dissonace tantrum but to also managing to be genuinely decent to us in spite of those fundamental points of disagreement. That is what I have to respect.


Given Aliza's shameless bribe of freakiness you'd be a fool not to.

Though I'm told that theBorg was seen with a large jar of peanut butter and a box of latex gloves. Hobo
Ha, I think there's an argument to be made that you've got it all backwards.

What?!? That was Aliza with the extra-crunchy and the cavity search gear?!? Blink

Quote:The fact that an outlandish theology can exist in the mind of an otherwise intelligent and capable person does not, in my view, speak to the merits of the theology.

Love the theist, hate the theology?

I fear that we may be agreeing here and have been talking in circles. It isn't the theology that I respect, at least not in its most basic form. It's their ability to be decent people in spite of that and be able to get along with people who clearly have radically different world views. That takes talent and class.

Quote:If anything, it speaks to that person's remarkable ability to compartmentalize.

That's certainly one aspect of it. It's also rather necessary to have devellopped a worldview that's not going to clash with reality and all of its denizens any more than you can help. You can compartmentalize Borg's childish squawking all you want, it isn't going to get any better.

Quote:I'll give you a less muddy example than KC. There's an Old Earth Creationist named Hugh Ross who happens to have a PhD in astrophysics. I watched him debate the YEC Kent Hovind a few years ago and have to admit that he comes across as a very educated, eloquent and intelligent man. Even so, he believes that Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eve existed the way it was described in Genesis. Now, would you say that this belief is 'mature and complex' simply because an intelligent man like him holds it or would you rather say that his ability to compartmentalize such an outlandish belief with everything that he knows as a scientist speaks to his highly developed intellect?

Granted, less "muddy". KC, you are a dirty, dirty dog. Get away from Aliza before QC gets the wrong idea. I'm going to have to keep you in separate rooms now aren't I? Which one of you wants to bunk with Borg and which with Q? Damn, this is going to be worse than that time with the wolf, the goat and the cabbage. Weeping

A few points:

- You've added a new aspect that I'm going to find hard to ignore and intertwined it with the core theism. Clearly I'll have a harder time respecting a biblical literalist. It isn't impossible though and there's a funny story there, though I'm not quite drunk enough to tell it.

- I'd have to say that the OEC's beliefs were a damned sight more mature than the YEC's. Less disparity with the facts, less need to compartmentalize. Still twaddle, but we're talking about a sliding scale here.

- Unlike our resident theists, cretinists have a pesky habit of peddling their beliefs in schools. The moment that Aliza petitions the Florida State School Board to give equal time for Jew Hell in math class she'll lose any respect I have for her. Actually, I'd probably split myself laughing at how she was parodying the fundamentalists and try and sign her petition.

- It isn't the intellect that's important. I know intellectuals who are jack-asses. It's a matter of being a decent person. Find me a creationist who can hang out with this lot of ruffians without flying a false flag or starting The Mother of All Flame Wars and I'll be in awe of both of you.

Quote:tl;dr version: I think you're giving credit to the belief when you should be giving credit to the believer. Tongue

I didn't see the sense in separating them. Would you still be you if I yoinked out your critical faculties and plunked some shamanism in their place?

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04-01-2017, 07:20 PM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(04-01-2017 06:00 PM)excitedpenguin Wrote:  
(04-01-2017 05:45 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Tomilay:

My beliefs cannot be defended under certain terms. This being an atheist forum, I can't expect an atheist to accept the Bible or any theology as an authority.

On these terms, I can only defend empirical evidence, logic and ration.

Since my faith... and the very essence of faith... cannot be proved through any of the aforementioned, my only honest answer would be to state that faith goes against logic and rationale. There is nothing wrong with that because the terms are not the same. Same goes with Biblical authority... I don't waste time quoting the Bible to atheists because I might as well quote Tolkien.

As a person who is very self aware and aware of my audience, saying anything differently based on the majority terms which set up the debate is 100% dishonest.

If it went against logic and rationale you wouldn't actively believe in it, you'd merely feel something, but you wouldn't go to the extent of actually describing your experiences as being a part of this or that ideology.

You're a people person, it seems to me. That's a very winning strategy, granted, but at the same time you can't have both the people's hearts and the integrity of your beliefs. Something has to give. I think you're sacrificing the truth (your truth), and failing to examine your own beliefs in the process of doing this.

Why do people keep missing what I'm saying about faith? I don't think I can be any clearer.

And I'm not a people person. I'm a genuine asshole. It just so happens I tell the truth, and I don't make excuses. For some reason people seem to like that.

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04-01-2017, 08:45 PM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(04-01-2017 05:45 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Tomilay:

My beliefs cannot be defended under certain terms. This being an atheist forum, I can't expect an atheist to accept the Bible or any theology as an authority.

On these terms, I can only defend empirical evidence, logic and ration.

Since my faith... and the very essence of faith... cannot be proved through any of the aforementioned, my only honest answer would be to state that faith goes against logic and rationale. There is nothing wrong with that because the terms are not the same. Same goes with Biblical authority... I don't waste time quoting the Bible to atheists because I might as well quote Tolkien.

As a person who is very self aware and aware of my audience, saying anything differently based on the majority terms which set up the debate is 100% dishonest.
You are an unusual theist in my experience, in that you understand how scripture is not evidence in our world. It is not, in my view, evidence, period. Not by any decent and accepted evidentiary standards. It is like quoting a Sears catalog when someone asks you for a customer review of Sears. Worse, really.

You are also to be commended for understanding that religious faith is pretty much the opposite of reason, logic, or exploration of evidence. It is beginning with the conclusion rather than ending with it.

The reason that most theists don't understand either of these concepts is that as soon as they understand them, their whole basis for their beliefs collapses. It makes me wonder what your basis actually is, or if you're just really good at compartmentalizing.
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04-01-2017, 09:29 PM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(04-01-2017 08:45 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(04-01-2017 05:45 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Tomilay:

My beliefs cannot be defended under certain terms. This being an atheist forum, I can't expect an atheist to accept the Bible or any theology as an authority.

On these terms, I can only defend empirical evidence, logic and ration.

Since my faith... and the very essence of faith... cannot be proved through any of the aforementioned, my only honest answer would be to state that faith goes against logic and rationale. There is nothing wrong with that because the terms are not the same. Same goes with Biblical authority... I don't waste time quoting the Bible to atheists because I might as well quote Tolkien.

As a person who is very self aware and aware of my audience, saying anything differently based on the majority terms which set up the debate is 100% dishonest.
You are an unusual theist in my experience, in that you understand how scripture is not evidence in our world. It is not, in my view, evidence, period. Not by any decent and accepted evidentiary standards. It is like quoting a Sears catalog when someone asks you for a customer review of Sears. Worse, really.

You are also to be commended for understanding that religious faith is pretty much the opposite of reason, logic, or exploration of evidence. It is beginning with the conclusion rather than ending with it.

The reason that most theists don't understand either of these concepts is that as soon as they understand them, their whole basis for their beliefs collapses. It makes me wonder what your basis actually is, or if you're just really good at compartmentalizing.

Are the theists in your life primarily fundamentalists?
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04-01-2017, 09:51 PM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(04-01-2017 08:45 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(04-01-2017 05:45 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Tomilay:

My beliefs cannot be defended under certain terms. This being an atheist forum, I can't expect an atheist to accept the Bible or any theology as an authority.

On these terms, I can only defend empirical evidence, logic and ration.

Since my faith... and the very essence of faith... cannot be proved through any of the aforementioned, my only honest answer would be to state that faith goes against logic and rationale. There is nothing wrong with that because the terms are not the same. Same goes with Biblical authority... I don't waste time quoting the Bible to atheists because I might as well quote Tolkien.

As a person who is very self aware and aware of my audience, saying anything differently based on the majority terms which set up the debate is 100% dishonest.
You are an unusual theist in my experience, in that you understand how scripture is not evidence in our world. It is not, in my view, evidence, period. Not by any decent and accepted evidentiary standards. It is like quoting a Sears catalog when someone asks you for a customer review of Sears. Worse, really.

You are also to be commended for understanding that religious faith is pretty much the opposite of reason, logic, or exploration of evidence. It is beginning with the conclusion rather than ending with it.

The reason that most theists don't understand either of these concepts is that as soon as they understand them, their whole basis for their beliefs collapses. It makes me wonder what your basis actually is, or if you're just really good at compartmentalizing.


Just saying thanks for the reference to here Mordant. Did C-D recently change so much from what it was?
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05-01-2017, 07:37 AM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(04-01-2017 04:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-01-2017 03:59 PM)Peter Slevon Wrote:  Information does not become one's knowledge unless it is believed.

Now you are just being annoying. Drinking Beverage

Quote:And your evidence that alleged evidence is for real?

It is a consistent body of information from a source that has a solid track record.

This is about facts, not beliefs.
So what are you saying, We are not even to believe facts?
Facts cannot become one's knowledge unless they are believed.
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