An Atheist who Found God
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05-01-2017, 10:51 AM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(04-01-2017 09:29 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Are the theists in your life primarily fundamentalists?
Yes, and I used to be one in the long-ago. But also, those with the most stridency are fundies who tend to post arguments in places like this, and so that is what I mostly interact with. Since I have the most experience and contact with fundamentalist / literalist / inerrantist thinking, that is how I tend to respond.

I do of course understand at least intellectually that liberal believers hold their faith more loosely, and I have had some contact with such folks, as well as non-Christian / post-Christian groups like UU congregations and Buddhists.

I tend to feel a lot of common cause with liberal theists, particularly the ones able to acknowledge that their religious faith claims are binding on themselves and themselves only.

However my comments here are generically about religious faith, which I regard as a failed epistemology no matter how loosely it's held.
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05-01-2017, 10:54 AM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(05-01-2017 07:37 AM)Peter Slevon Wrote:  
(04-01-2017 04:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  Now you are just being annoying. Drinking Beverage


It is a consistent body of information from a source that has a solid track record.

This is about facts, not beliefs.
So what are you saying, We are not even to believe facts?
Facts cannot become one's knowledge unless they are believed.

You continue to conflate two meanings of "believe". Your whole argument is muddy, even nonsensical.

Facts are accepted. That is not belief in the sense of belief without evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-01-2017, 11:25 AM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(04-01-2017 09:51 PM)dillionmt Wrote:  Just saying thanks for the reference to here Mordant. Did C-D recently change so much from what it was?
It has changed recently. It may bounce the other way some after a settling-in period, but I'm not very optimistic.

For the benefit of regulars here: I have been a member here for a long time but devoted most of my time to the Atheism and Agnosticism and Religion & Spirituality forums on City-Data (C-D). It was a combination of I-was-there-first inertia and honestly a preference for the generally more subjectively civil discourse on C-D. But recently two things seem to be happening throughout their general forums. One gets two impressions -- that management has applied some top-down pressure on mods recently to maintain a stricter (and in my view seriously ill-advised) prohibition of even incidental topical bleed-thru such as, say, a passing mention of some political matter in a discussion on the psychology forum; and that theist factions have been vigorously lobbying to quash any sort of debate or dissent from those of Other Persuasions. A new policy has gone out on Religion & Spirituality that no threads are to be started on science topics. It is a curious policy because there have BEEN no such threads. There have been threads such as "The Importance of Science in Religious Discussions" which has been shut down on the pretext that it had a lot of 'bickering' and went off-topic. At any rate the upshot is that threads are now being closed for trivial reasons unrelated to the new policy. For example, a theist started a topic with no science content, someone posted a counter-argument citing a scientific substantiation (and quite in passing), and the thread was shut down.

As a result of these unfortunate developments, I have decided to shift the majority of my online time to this venue. I am not interested in a venue that quashes dissent or alternative viewpoints and which, in fact, is increasingly biased against them.
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05-01-2017, 11:50 AM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(04-01-2017 06:00 PM)excitedpenguin Wrote:  
(04-01-2017 05:45 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Tomilay:

My beliefs cannot be defended under certain terms. This being an atheist forum, I can't expect an atheist to accept the Bible or any theology as an authority.

On these terms, I can only defend empirical evidence, logic and ration.

Since my faith... and the very essence of faith... cannot be proved through any of the aforementioned, my only honest answer would be to state that faith goes against logic and rationale. There is nothing wrong with that because the terms are not the same. Same goes with Biblical authority... I don't waste time quoting the Bible to atheists because I might as well quote Tolkien.

As a person who is very self aware and aware of my audience, saying anything differently based on the majority terms which set up the debate is 100% dishonest.

If it went against logic and rationale you wouldn't actively believe in it, you'd merely feel something, but you wouldn't go to the extent of actually describing your experiences as being a part of this or that ideology.

You're a people person, it seems to me. That's a very winning strategy, granted, but at the same time you can't have both the people's hearts and the integrity of your beliefs. Something has to give. I think you're sacrificing the truth (your truth), and failing to examine your own beliefs in the process of doing this.

KC 's is an interesting conundrum. I have said elsewhere, a while back when I joined TTA, that there is something positive to be said for Christianity as it is manifested today, even though its core beliefs are demonstrably wrong.

Some people owe their lives to it - I am talking about missionary schools, hospitals etc in poor countries. I get that you can be that way, without having to believe woo, but what I am saying is also true. It's an organizing principle for some people. Without it, they see anarchy.

That said, we should still feel free and constrained only by reason to call out beliefs like KC's whenever we feel like on an atheist forum. I say this because some newbie impressionable atheist seeking clarification and community joins TTA, and sees KC being praised for "mature theism" and they risk falling back into their religious ways.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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05-01-2017, 12:21 PM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(05-01-2017 11:25 AM)mordant Wrote:  
(04-01-2017 09:51 PM)dillionmt Wrote:  Just saying thanks for the reference to here Mordant. Did C-D recently change so much from what it was?
It has changed recently. It may bounce the other way some after a settling-in period, but I'm not very optimistic.

For the benefit of regulars here: I have been a member here for a long time but devoted most of my time to the Atheism and Agnosticism and Religion & Spirituality forums on City-Data (C-D). It was a combination of I-was-there-first inertia and honestly a preference for the generally more subjectively civil discourse on C-D. But recently two things seem to be happening throughout their general forums. One gets two impressions -- that management has applied some top-down pressure on mods recently to maintain a stricter (and in my view seriously ill-advised) prohibition of even incidental topical bleed-thru such as, say, a passing mention of some political matter in a discussion on the psychology forum; and that theist factions have been vigorously lobbying to quash any sort of debate or dissent from those of Other Persuasions. A new policy has gone out on Religion & Spirituality that no threads are to be started on science topics. It is a curious policy because there have BEEN no such threads. There have been threads such as "The Importance of Science in Religious Discussions" which has been shut down on the pretext that it had a lot of 'bickering' and went off-topic. At any rate the upshot is that threads are now being closed for trivial reasons unrelated to the new policy. For example, a theist started a topic with no science content, someone posted a counter-argument citing a scientific substantiation (and quite in passing), and the thread was shut down.

As a result of these unfortunate developments, I have decided to shift the majority of my online time to this venue. I am not interested in a venue that quashes dissent or alternative viewpoints and which, in fact, is increasingly biased against them.

Goes to show just how lucky we are to have the freedom that Seths website allows us, and perhaps appreciate it more than we currently do.
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05-01-2017, 12:29 PM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(05-01-2017 12:21 PM)adey67 Wrote:  Goes to show just how lucky we are to have the freedom that Seths website allows us, and perhaps appreciate it more than we currently do.
Indeed.

Part of the former charm of C-D was the way in which, by design or accident, it allowed disparate elements to interact without moderators being terribly partial to any one group; most moderation was against overt schoolyard tactics, ad hominem attacks and the like. Now the theists are clawing back their unearned automatic respect and deference that they so want to restore to religious faith. The net effect is I and quite possibly others will come here, where arguably there is somewhat more bias in favor of reason, and the two groups in a sense grow further apart because many theists will avoid an environment that does't have at least a detached, benign tolerance for their views. This is more of a no-BS-allowed environment that will allow theists to go down in flames with little or no sympathy. If that is the price I have to pay for freedom of speech, though, so be it. I now see the wisdom of it.
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05-01-2017, 12:35 PM (This post was last modified: 05-01-2017 12:39 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(05-01-2017 12:21 PM)adey67 Wrote:  Goes to show just how lucky we are to have the freedom that Seths website allows us, and perhaps appreciate it more than we currently do.

shhhhh .... if you say his name too loud he'll remember we're here giving his brand a bad name.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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05-01-2017, 12:54 PM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(05-01-2017 11:25 AM)mordant Wrote:  ...
As a result of these unfortunate developments, I have decided to shift the majority of my online time to this venue. I am not interested in a venue that quashes dissent or alternative viewpoints and which, in fact, is increasingly biased against them.


Thread Closed

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Couldn't resist.

Blush

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05-01-2017, 12:58 PM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(05-01-2017 12:35 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(05-01-2017 12:21 PM)adey67 Wrote:  Goes to show just how lucky we are to have the freedom that Seths website allows us, and perhaps appreciate it more than we currently do.

shhhhh .... if you say his name too loud he'll remember we're here giving his brand a bad name.

Slightly cruel don't ya think ?
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05-01-2017, 01:02 PM
RE: An Atheist who Found God
(05-01-2017 12:54 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(05-01-2017 11:25 AM)mordant Wrote:  ...
As a result of these unfortunate developments, I have decided to shift the majority of my online time to this venue. I am not interested in a venue that quashes dissent or alternative viewpoints and which, in fact, is increasingly biased against them.


Thread Closed

[Image: giphy.gif]

Couldn't resist.

Blush
Whaaat ? Is the thread really closed ?? Shocking Nah you're teasing me lol.
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