An Atheist who Found God

[TheInquisition]

(09-01-2017 07:33 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  

(06-01-2017 04:04 PM)PeacefulHeart Wrote:  I've decided I'm leaving. I don't feel welcomed here. I've feel I’ve been mocked, belittled, and derided. I shouldn’t have responded to these comments or to the invasions of my privacy and personal health as I did. I don't feel this is an atmosphere of civil, friendly debate or discussion. I'm a human being and I don't deserve to be treated this way. Thank you to the few of you who showed me some kindness. Blessings to you all.

"I'm a human being and I don't deserve to be treated this way."

You don't deserve to be treated in what way? With skepticism?

Theists have some very odd expectations sometimes.

According to her religion, she deserves to be fried in hell for an eternity.

[Deesse23]

(06-01-2017 04:04 PM)PeacefulHeart Wrote:  I'm a human being and I don't deserve to be treated this way.

Right, as a human being and christian she deserves to be tortured forever, for having done nothing.

Edit: oops already mentioned

[Astreja]

(09-01-2017 09:23 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  According to her religion, she deserves to be fried in hell for an eternity.

Um... Isn't she supposedly in the olly olly oxen free zone, and it's *us* who are in peril? (Personally I think that no one is ever safe from a god that would think to create a hell.)

[mordant]

(09-01-2017 07:33 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "I'm a human being and I don't deserve to be treated this way."

You don't deserve to be treated in what way? With skepticism?

Theists have some very odd expectations sometimes.

As a former evangelical I can testify that it is not just what we normally decry here -- the demand for unearned deference and respect for religious ideation with no requirement of substantiation -- but it is more pervasive within their "bubble". There is a real culture of "make nice or shut up". I sometimes associate this with the midwestern US ethos of "if you can't think of something nice to say, don't say anything". And indeed it is partially borrowed from that cultural ethos (which in turn is probably influenced by Bible Belt theology anyway).

But I think it is also a subconscious realization that their entire belief-system hangs on a sort of shared fiction where it is taboo to be skeptical or criticize the system and everyone is implicitly expected to help shore up the fiction. This taboo extends not just to outsiders like us, but to fellow theists as well. Because questioning precipitates an existential crisis, it is unwelcome and it tends to extend to non-theological matters, to anything that would question a person's sincerity and well-meaningness and just their self-image generally. This was so drilled into me as a child that to this day, decades later, I tend to be thin-skinned myself when someone misunderstands or mischaracterizes my self-perceived motives. It requires herculean effort on my part to consider objectively that there might be some truth to the criticism, that I might either be, or at least appear to be, a dick or ignorant or whatever they are implying. Because I had it drilled into me that if you mean well and try your best, that is unassailable in polite company, that anyone who attacks you has some kind of agenda or at least is feckless and disloyal to people who deserve loyalty.

Now that might or might not apply in this particular case, especially if, as the OP claims, she is a lifelong unbeliever and a recent convert. But the "boo-hoo you are mean" response does not surprise me either.

Don't get me wrong, I think we do them a "tough love" favor exposing them to an environment other than their standard circle-jerk. Waking up is not pleasant no matter how you go about it, but getting unpleasantness over quickly is usually best. But I just bring this up to explain the behavior to those who might be baffled or thinking about it as more a character weakness than a product of operant conditioning.

[TheBeardedDude]

(09-01-2017 09:23 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 07:33 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "I'm a human being and I don't deserve to be treated this way."

You don't deserve to be treated in what way? With skepticism?

Theists have some very odd expectations sometimes.

According to her religion, she deserves to be fried in hell for an eternity.

You gotta read the fine print

[TheBeardedDude]

(09-01-2017 10:28 AM)mordant Wrote:  

(09-01-2017 07:33 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "I'm a human being and I don't deserve to be treated this way."

You don't deserve to be treated in what way? With skepticism?

Theists have some very odd expectations sometimes.

As a former evangelical I can testify that it is not just what we normally decry here -- the demand for unearned deference and respect for religious ideation with no requirement of substantiation -- but it is more pervasive within their "bubble". There is a real culture of "make nice or shut up". I sometimes associate this with the midwestern US ethos of "if you can't think of something nice to say, don't say anything". And indeed it is partially borrowed from that cultural ethos (which in turn is probably influenced by Bible Belt theology anyway).

But I think it is also a subconscious realization that their entire belief-system hangs on a short of shared fiction where it is taboo to be skeptical or criticize the system and everyone is implicitly expected to help shore up the fiction. This taboo extends not just to outsiders like us, but to fellow theists as well. Because questioning precipitates an existential crisis, it is unwelcome and it tends to extend to non-theological matters, to anything that would question a person's sincerity and well-meaningness and just their self-image generally. This was so drilled into me as a child that to this day, decades later, I tend to be thin-skinned myself when someone misunderstands or mischaracterizes my self-perceived motives. It requires herculean effort on my part to consider objectively that there might be some truth to the criticism, that I might either be, or at least appear to be, a dick or ignorant or whatever they are implying. Because I had it drilled into me that if you mean well and try your best, that is unassailable in polite company, that anyone who attacks you has some kind of agenda or at least is feckless and disloyal to people who deserve loyalty.

Now that might or might not apply in this particular case, especially if, as the OP claims, she is a lifelong unbeliever and a recent convert. But the "boo-hoo you are mean" response does not surprise me either.

Don't get me wrong, I think we do them a "tough love" favor exposing them to an environment other than their standard circle-jerk. Waking up is not pleasant no matter how you go about it, but getting unpleasantness over quickly is usually best. But I just bring this up to explain the behavior to those who might be baffled or thinking about it as more a character weakness than a product of operant conditioning.

I agree and for the most part my response was me being facetious.


"But the "boo-hoo you are mean" response does not surprise me either."

This was mostly what I was focusing on. You come to an atheist site as a christian and you're surprised to find that people don't like or agree with your beliefs and don't kiss your ass? Sounds like something is stuck up it.

[adey67]

Also did anything we said denigrate peaceful hate as a human being ? Did we suggest she was untermench ? Hell no, its the classic adage of christian persecution complex.

[mordant]

(09-01-2017 11:03 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I agree and for the most part my response was me being facetious.

"But the "boo-hoo you are mean" response does not surprise me either."

This was mostly what I was focusing on. You come to an atheist site as a christian and you're surprised to find that people don't like or agree with your beliefs and don't kiss your ass? Sounds like something is stuck up it.

Yeah I know you were being facetious and I'm not arguing (anymore) for kid gloves and "understanding". It doesn't actually help. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.

Reminds me of The Oatmeal (a wonderful cartoon -- highly recommended) which mocks much social discourse as an overly polite response: "Why thank, you, kind sir, and kudos to your magnificence". That is the only thing you can do for believers like this that they'll tolerate, and sometimes not even that, because it doesn't include "Why, you have made me think things I never thunk before, I may even (re)convert to Christianity. Thank you for saving my wretched soul!"

I do not think in their heart of hearts they really expect that to happen, what they are really doing is setting up contrived conversations like this that they can come away from with stories that "prove" how depraved and intransigent and cruel one becomes without god.

My sole remaining slight reservation about telling them not to let the door hit their ass on the way out is that we are feeding that stereotype, but at my age I no longer give a fig what people think, and besides, if they are determined to feed confirmation bias on that or any other topic, they'll find a way to do it with or without my help.

[Heath_Tierney]

(09-01-2017 11:50 AM)mordant Wrote:  "Why thank, you, kind sir, and kudos to your magnificence".

I shall begin using that in my daily discourse, effective immediately.

[Stevil]

(29-12-2016 05:44 PM)PeacefulHeart Wrote:  

(29-12-2016 02:22 PM)Stevil Wrote:  How have you applied critical thinking to your first quote above?

I don’t know how to respond to this since I feel I’m being mocked.

I wasn't mocking you.
I quoted, word for word your own story, and asked how you considered that you were applying critical thinking to that story.

You said you were a critical thinker, so I thought the question was apt and respectful.

Anyway, good luck for your future, may your journey with god be a successful and happy one. And if you go back to atheist then may that also be successful and happy. Happy either way.
Good luck.