An Attempt at Debunking the Biblical God
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08-09-2012, 04:38 PM (This post was last modified: 08-09-2012 04:48 PM by Vosur.)
RE: An Attempt at Debunking the Biblical God
(08-09-2012 04:19 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Watch the Eagleman stuff. You are not "free" if what is in control is not in your consciousness. You are SUBJECT to processes which, (being in your brain..is irrelevant), you are not conscious of. How is THAT "free" ? You may be subject to yourself, (and so what are we arguing about anyway ?), but the concept is not about 'subject to yourself, or something "else". It's about CONSCIOUSLY evaluating possibilities of behavior. If THAT is not conscious, how is that a "free" choice. It's not about "free from something or someone else", it's about "free TO" make any possible choice. (It comes from religion, ...a choice to obey or not obey).
You are neither free from you subconscious, or free to make any possible choice.
I think we're still talking about different definitions of free will. In no way does free will mean that you can make any possible choice. There is no absolute free will because it is, for example, restricted by the parts of your body that you can't control. You can't control the rate at which your heart beats. You can't control your intestines. You can't control how fast your hair grows or how fast you age. You can't jump to the moon if you feel like it. We are limited by the laws of physics either way. And as I've said, as far as I know, so far there hasn't been any testing on whether or not more complex choices/creative processes/everyday life choices are controlled sub/unconsciously or consciously.

I'll watch the 'Eagleman stuff' later on.

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08-09-2012, 05:59 PM
RE: An Attempt at Debunking the Biblical God
(08-09-2012 04:38 PM)Vosur Wrote:  And as I've said, as far as I know, so far there hasn't been any testing on whether or not more complex choices/creative processes/everyday life choices are controlled sub/unconsciously or consciously.

There has. Tons of it.




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08-09-2012, 06:04 PM (This post was last modified: 08-09-2012 06:50 PM by Vosur.)
RE: An Attempt at Debunking the Biblical God
(08-09-2012 05:59 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There has. Tons of it.



It's just as simple as the previous experiments. Next. Drinking Beverage The shown examples also do not even apply as far as I'm concerned. Contrary to his claim, I actually know why I make decision X beforehand. Additionally, the analogy of different political parties in our head is really lacking.

Edit: When I say 'complex' and 'creative', I'm not talking about simple two-choice experiments and the likes of them. The simplicity of them is laughable, they basically have no basis in reality. There are always more factors to keep in mind, even if it's just a choice between two different sorts of candies (price, calories, date of expiry, etc.), requiring a much more complex thought process. What I mean is, can you, for example, judging by the brain's activity, tell what paint stroke an artist is going to make next? Which notes a musician is going to play next when he's improvising? Which words a freestyle rapper is going to use? What code a programmer is about to write? What idea a scientist will have within the next few seconds? Have there been experiments done with such tasks?

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08-09-2012, 06:57 PM
RE: An Attempt at Debunking the Biblical God
(08-09-2012 06:04 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(08-09-2012 05:59 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There has. Tons of it.



It's just as simple as the previous experiments. Next. Drinking Beverage The shown examples also do not even apply as far as I'm concerned. Contrary to his claim, I actually know why I make decision X beforehand. Additionally, the analogy of different political parties in our head is really lacking.

Edit: When I say 'complex' and 'creative', I'm not talking about simple two-choice experiments and the likes of them. The simplicity of them is laughable, they basically have no basis in reality. There are always more factors to keep in mind, even if it's just a choice between two different sorts of candies (price, calories, date of expiry, etc.), requiring a much more complex thought process. What I mean is, can you, for example, judging by the brain's activity, tell what paint stroke an artist is going to make next? Which notes a musician is going to play next when he's improvising? Which words a freestyle rapper is going to use? What code a programmer is about to write? What idea a scientist will have within the next few seconds? Have there been experiments done with such tasks?

I don't know. There is an entire field of Decision Making Neuro-science. What would what you're asking tell you anyway ? You *think* you know why you make "x" decision, but you really don't understand all the underlying processes, going into it. As Eagleman points out, THAT "knowing", may be retroactive, actually.
Google : Neuro-chemistry of Decision making, or Neuro-biology of Decision making, AFTER you watch Eagleman. What you *think* you know about decision making, may not be true.

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08-09-2012, 07:08 PM
RE: An Attempt at Debunking the Biblical God
(08-09-2012 06:57 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I don't know. There is an entire field of Decision Making Neuro-science. What would what you're asking tell you anyway ?
It would tell me that the method of determining that a decision is made unconsciously a few seconds before you make it consciously is not applicable outside of these oversimplified experiments.

(08-09-2012 06:57 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You *think* you know why you make "x" decision, but you really don't understand all the underlying processes, going into it. As Eagleman points out, THAT "knowing", may be retroactive, actually.
Since "I" am the brain, "I" am the one controlling all these processes. That being said, how can the knowledge of my future actions, for example me knowing that I'm going to type a word with five letters after this question be retroactive?

Alpha

(08-09-2012 06:57 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Google : Neuro-chemistry of Decision making, or Neuro-biology of Decision making, AFTER you watch Eagleman. What you *think* you know about decision making, may not be true.
I'll get back to you tomorrow. I'm too tired for this right now. Hold on to your reply until then. Tongue

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08-09-2012, 07:14 PM
RE: An Attempt at Debunking the Biblical God
(08-09-2012 07:08 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(08-09-2012 06:57 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I don't know. There is an entire field of Decision Making Neuro-science. What would what you're asking tell you anyway ?
It would tell me that the method of determining that a decision is made unconsciously a few seconds before you make it consciously is not applicable outside of these oversimplified experiments.

(08-09-2012 06:57 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You *think* you know why you make "x" decision, but you really don't understand all the underlying processes, going into it. As Eagleman points out, THAT "knowing", may be retroactive, actually.
Since "I" am the brain, "I" am the one controlling all these processes. That being said, how can the knowledge of my future actions, for example me knowing that I'm going to type a word with five letters after this question be retroactive?

Alpha

(08-09-2012 06:57 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Google : Neuro-chemistry of Decision making, or Neuro-biology of Decision making, AFTER you watch Eagleman. What you *think* you know about decision making, may not be true.
I'll get back to you tomorrow. I'm too tired for this right now. Hold on to your reply until then. Tongue

You're not "controlling" anything, if the process is unconscious.
Watch Eagleman.

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09-09-2012, 05:36 AM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2012 05:40 AM by Vosur.)
RE: An Attempt at Debunking the Biblical God
(08-09-2012 07:14 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You're not "controlling" anything, if the process is unconscious.
Watch Eagleman.
Alright, I just finished watching this video of Eagleman you linked me to.

His example of rings moving with a flash within them in the very beginning is nothing but an optical illusion. It's a leap of faith to claim that this has something to do with our brain 'guessing' future events. That being said, this is yet another example of an experiment that is too simple and too specific. It makes me wonder if they specifically design these experiments so that they approve the expectations they already have.

Why don't they ever try this with anything more complex or realistic?

Futhermore, his assertion that we experience gaps in time because we blink or move our eyes is blatantly wrong. He's implying that blind people have no conception of time, when we ('we' as in 'us and blind people') can actually percieve time not only through our visual organs, but also through sound, change of temperature, touch, etc. He then continues by asserting that our brain synchronizes sound and visuals as long as the signals arrive within 80 milliseconds. I'd rather say that the timeframe is so small that we don't notice the difference between the two of them. He presents no scientific evidence for this other than 'Oh we did an experiment, but I'm not going to go in the details'. I'd like a source on the conducted experiments, please.

At 17:17 he asserts that during the experiment, if they caused a flash of light to appear before it usually does, you'd think that it appeared before you pressed the button. I'd also like a source for this experiment.

At 23:12 he asserts that there is a difference between the time you measure during the fall of another person and the time taken for your own fall. In order for this to be valid, all subjects would have to have the same weight and the same size, otherwise they are obviously not going to fall with the same speed. The difference between the measurements is so small (a fraction of a second) that this is only one of the explanations for it.

At no point in the video does he adress the problem of conscious/unconscious processes during our decision-making and how the results of experiments concerning those can be used to make judgements about anything but the experiments themselves.

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09-09-2012, 06:26 AM
RE: An Attempt at Debunking the Biblical God
(09-09-2012 05:36 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Futhermore, his assertion that we experience gaps in time because we blink or move our eyes is blatantly wrong. He's implying that blind people have no conception of time, when we ('we' as in 'us and blind people') can actually percieve time not only through our visual organs, but also through sound, change of temperature, touch, etc. He then continues by asserting that our brain synchronizes sound and visuals as long as the signals arrive within 80 milliseconds. I'd rather say that the timeframe is so small that we don't notice the difference between the two of them. He presents no scientific evidence for this other than 'Oh we did an experiment, but I'm not going to go in the details'. I'd like a source on the conducted experiments, please.

Great. Whatever. Believe in whatever you want. He has demonstrated we are not aware of what is actually going on beneath our conscious decision-making process. He did NOT say we experience "gaps" in time. His point was exactly the opposite. He said our brains "assembles" things, (for example, between a "blink",) to form an experience of NON-interruption. If you're interested in the field of Decision Neuro-psych, go find your own links, and documentation.

(09-09-2012 05:36 AM)Vosur Wrote:  At 23:12 he asserts that there is a difference between the time you measure during the fall of another person and the time taken for your own fall. In order for this to be valid, all subjects would have to have the same weight and the same size, otherwise they are obviously not going to fall with the same speed. The difference between the measurements is so small (a fraction of a second) that this is only one of the explanations for it.

What ???!!! WRONG. You never heard of Newton's experiment ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mCC-68LyZM

(09-09-2012 05:36 AM)Vosur Wrote:  At no point in the video does he address the problem of conscious/unconscious processes during our decision-making and how the results of experiments concerning those can be used to make judgements about anything but the experiments themselves.

He does. Obviously you don't want to see what he's saying. I'm done here.

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09-09-2012, 07:00 AM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2012 07:03 AM by Vosur.)
RE: An Attempt at Debunking the Biblical God
(09-09-2012 06:26 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  He did NOT say we experience "gaps" in time. His point was exactly the opposite. He said our brains "assembles" things, (for example, between a "blink",) to form an experience of NON-interruption. If you're interested in the field of Decision Neuro-psych, go find your own links, and documentation.
Well actually, he did. Watch it yourself.

Starting at 8:19, he says "And what about gaps in time? We have gaps in time all of the time. So think about whenever you blink your eyes, the world goes dark for about 80 milliseconds, it's black. And you don't notice that at all, you don't notice that gap in time there. Now, if I came in here and flicked the lights on and off, you would notice that immediatly, right? That would be easily noticable, it's because it's a self-generated movement, we have this gap in time. It doesn't seem to concern us. It turns out that it's a lot worse than blinks, because every time you move your eyes, in a ballistic movement called a saccade, you make these all the time and it turns out that most of your visual system shuts down during a saccade, so that it doesn't look like the world is screening past. And you don't care about these gaps in time either."

As a matter of fact, I do notice the black 'vision' for a fraction of a second when I blink. If you blink repeatedly in a short time, you'll notice it even more. The brain does nothing to 'stich' the 'before' and 'after' the blink together. The problem here is, a lack of vision does not equal a gap in time, as he likes to portray it.

(09-09-2012 06:26 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  What ???!!! WRONG. You never heard of Newton's experiment ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mCC-68LyZM
Fair enough, different weights wouldn't make a difference. That being said, it also depends on how they jumped and in what position they were when they fell. Aerodynamics play an important role at that point. Do you want to claim that the difference of a fraction of a second has no other explanation other than a different perception of time?

(09-09-2012 06:26 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  He does. Obviously you don't want to see what he's saying. I'm done here.
No, he doesn't. Either way, suit yourself. Drinking Beverage

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09-09-2012, 08:48 AM
RE: An Attempt at Debunking the Biblical God
http://www.theassc.org/files/assc/Primin...orASSC.pdf

http://www.frontiersin.org/consciousness...00106/full

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferring_self-agency

http://psych.princeton.edu/psychology/re...Powers.pdf

http://www.yale.edu/acmelab/articles/Bar..._final.pdf

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/workshop...lusion.pdf

http://web.gc.cuny.edu/cogsci/private/Ha...ark-CC.pdf

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