An Email forward I received...
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15-09-2011, 07:14 AM
An Email forward I received...
I got this from a family member. A bible thumper. Wanted your thoughts.



God vs. Science

"Let me explain the problem science has with religion."

The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'

'Yes sir,' the student says.

'So you believe in God?'

'Absolutely'

'Is God good?'

'Sure! God's good.'

'Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'

'Yes'

'Are you good or evil?'

'The Bible says I'm evil.'

The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible! He considers for a moment. 'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'

'Yes sir, I would.'



'So you're good...!'



'I wouldn't say that.'



'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'



The student does not answer, so the professor continues. 'He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Can you answer that one?'



The student remains silent. 'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. 'Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?'



'Er..yes,' the student says.



'Is Satan good?'



The student doesn't hesitate on this one. 'No.'



'Then where does Satan come from?'



The student falters. 'From God'



'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?'



'Yes, sir.'



'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'



'Yes'



'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'



Again, the student has no answer. 'Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'



The student squirms on his feet. 'Yes.'



'So who created them?'



The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. 'Who created them?' There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. 'Tell me,' he continues onto another student. 'Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?'



The student's voice betrays him and cracks. 'Yes, professor, I do..'



The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'



'No sir. I've never seen Him.'



'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'



'No, sir, I have not.'



'Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?'



'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'



'Yet you still believe in him?'



'Yes'



'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist... What do you say to that, son?'



'Nothing,' the student replies. 'I only have my faith.'



'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'



The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. 'Professor, is there such thing as heat? '



'Yes.



'And is there such a thing as cold?'



'Yes, son, there's cold too.'



'No sir, there isn't.'



The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. 'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit down to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'



Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.



'What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?'



'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it isn't darkness?'



'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?'



The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. 'So what point are you making, young man?'



'Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'



The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. 'Flawed? Can you explain how?'



'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains... 'You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.' 'It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.' 'Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?'



'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.'



'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'



The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.



'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'



The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided. 'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.' The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter. 'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.' 'So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'



Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. 'I Guess you'll have to take them on faith.'



'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?' Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it Everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in The multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'



To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'



The professor sat down.

Why are you still reading this line when it is obviously my signature line?
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15-09-2011, 07:34 AM
RE: An Email forward I received...
The professor sat down.

Placed his head in his hands and thought.......

"Why the f*ck did I accept a job teaching in a christian school"

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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15-09-2011, 08:16 AM
RE: An Email forward I received...
The student demonstrated a common fallacy with his argument.

If evil is the absence of god, then god cannot be omniscient.

Also the whole 'you can't see heat' argument is also fallacious. You see the affects of heat, you feel heat, we can measure heat.

And again with evolution, we have evidence, you can see the affects, hell we even seen evolution in process.

So the professor probably sat down and face palmed and thought

'This is the last time I teach remedial science'

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15-09-2011, 09:01 AM
RE: An Email forward I received...
Good points. If the student wants to define things by the absence of something (like atheism), he must define how god = good when god could stop evil by being present (using his argument that evil = absence of god). Seems like a contradiction that someone (or something) that is capable of stopping bad things from happening but chooses not to, would still be considered good.

As for the darkness and cold examples, darkness may in fact be an absence of light and cold may be an absence of heat, but (as pointed out by others) they can be quantitatively measured and observed. And not only that, but they can be theoretically defined as well. How else does the kid know the temperature of absolute zero? Show me an equation for GOD!!!!

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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15-09-2011, 09:26 AM
RE: An Email forward I received...
Hey, Boe.

Nice email. Thoughtful.

Hey, Monkey.

Quote:If evil is the absence of god, then god cannot be omniscient.

If I build a vacuum robot that can self-guide, I don't control where it goes. If I program it to decide when to do it, I can't control when it does it. If I program it with the ability to decide whether it wants to be a vacuum robot or a shifless layabout, I can't control it's choice. I can know everything about that robot, but if I gave it the choice, then it decides.

I'm not saying that there is a God and this is what he has done. I'm just pointing out a possible flaw in your assertion.

I thought the absence of God argument was elegant. Much better than a lot of other arguments.

Quote:Also the whole 'you can't see heat' argument is also fallacious.

It would be... If that was his argument. He said there's no cold. He actually said that you can measure heat.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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15-09-2011, 09:47 AM
RE: An Email forward I received...
(15-09-2011 09:26 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Boe.

Nice email. Thoughtful.

Hey, Monkey.

Quote:If evil is the absence of god, then god cannot be omniscient.

If I build a vacuum robot that can self-guide, I don't control where it goes. If I program it to decide when to do it, I can't control when it does it. If I program it with the ability to decide whether it wants to be a vacuum robot or a shifless layabout, I can't control it's choice. I can know everything about that robot, but if I gave it the choice, then it decides.

I'm not saying that there is a God and this is what he has done. I'm just pointing out a possible flaw in your assertion.

I thought the absence of God argument was elegant. Much better than a lot of other arguments.

Quote:Also the whole 'you can't see heat' argument is also fallacious.

It would be... If that was his argument. He said there's no cold. He actually said that you can measure heat.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

That is true, Matt, but you are not 'god of the robots'. God isn't like a robot maker, or a parent, he is the omnipresent omniscient being in our universe...according to the faithful. He knows and sees all. Yes, you would know the vacuums every move. If God is how Abrahamic faiths describe him, then he can never really be absent from anywhere, God, to them, is everywhere. So the answer to the 'evil is the absence of god' cannot technically work.

Sorry if my argument is not elegant or flowery.

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15-09-2011, 10:49 AM
RE: An Email forward I received...
(15-09-2011 09:01 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Good points. If the student wants to define things by the absence of something (like atheism), he must define how god = good when god could stop evil by being present (using his argument that evil = absence of god). Seems like a contradiction that someone (or something) that is capable of stopping bad things from happening but chooses not to, would still be considered good.

As for the darkness and cold examples, darkness may in fact be an absence of light and cold may be an absence of heat, but (as pointed out by others) they can be quantitatively measured and observed. And not only that, but they can be theoretically defined as well. How else does the kid know the temperature of absolute zero? Show me an equation for GOD!!!!

H + BW + BF - LR= G
(Holy text + brainwashing + blind faith - Logic & reason = God)

Behold the power of the force!
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15-09-2011, 10:52 AM
RE: An Email forward I received...
Hey, Monkey.

I think I see what you're trying to say. But what I mean is that if God gave us choice, then that's not something he has to manage (maybe he micro manages every quantum reaction, who knows). All the dude was saying that God is not present in their hearts, not that he wasn't there physically or because he overlooked something. That's a choice, not a comment on whether or not God knows and sees all.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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15-09-2011, 10:53 AM
RE: An Email forward I received...
Anyone can write a script, like this author did, to make it seem like the point you are trying to make is more valid.

Why are you still reading this line when it is obviously my signature line?
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15-09-2011, 10:58 AM
RE: An Email forward I received...
Good point Boe. Anyone can write fiction to support a particular claim or point, because they have complete control over the story, the characters and the results. It is reality that religion fails to explain, not fantasy.

And thanks for the equation. One minor change.
(H + BW + BF) - LR= G
(Holy text + brainwashing + blind faith) - Logic & reason = God

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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