An Essay on the Moral Argument
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29-07-2017, 02:04 PM
RE: An Essay on the Moral Argument
(29-07-2017 01:54 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  What about a certain sky fairy who tortures innocent babies who die after being born into the wrong religion?

What about a sky fairy who tortures anyone, innocent or not?

I know a lot of people have dropped this part of theology and I'm grateful to all of those who have.

The sky fairy is considered as the one who establishes morality for his human creatures. He is not bound by his own morality. So I don't think these ideas are inconsistent the way you seem to be implying. It is repeatedly asserted in holy books that "He does whatever he wants".
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29-07-2017, 02:14 PM
RE: An Essay on the Moral Argument
(29-07-2017 02:04 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  The sky fairy is considered as the one who establishes morality for his human creatures.

Some indoctrinated people consider this particular sky fairy to be one who established morality for his human creatures. Fixed it for you.

Quote:He is not bound by his own morality.

Some people think that god in whose existence they believe without good reason for such isn't bound by rules others must obey.

Quote:So I don't think these ideas are inconsistent the way you seem to be implying. It is repeatedly asserted in holy books that "He does whatever he wants".

Ideas might be consistent. They are still abhorrent.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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30-07-2017, 03:34 AM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2017 03:41 AM by nosferatu323.)
RE: An Essay on the Moral Argument
(29-07-2017 02:14 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Ideas might be consistent. They are still abhorrent.

Ideas might be abhorrent but be useful.

I think the idea of eternal torture for not conforming to some standards can be pretty useful for a conditioned mind. After the mind has adapted to those standards, it attains security (promise of paradise), so the "abhorrent" part is just a transient phase to effectively shift a mind to a desirable state.

The same things holds for legal systems. The fear of punishments causes a shift in how people perceive things as good and bad, so they would no longer want to play with the rules. After that, they attain security by knowing that the legal system is on their side as long as they don't break the laws.
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30-07-2017, 03:45 AM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2017 04:01 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: An Essay on the Moral Argument
(30-07-2017 03:34 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(29-07-2017 02:14 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Ideas might be consistent. They are still abhorrent.

Ideas might be abhorrent but be useful.

Idea of eternal punishment for not sucking up to particular genocidal sky daddy is just abhorrent.

Edit: I don't know what is more abhorrent: idea itself or clergy profiting from it. It makes me sick just to think how shitty human being must be to sell this idea to other people. It's essence of totalitarianism - thought crimes and eternal punishment for standing up to main bozo. I long for day when shit called religion will land in dumpster of history, where it will be resting with marxism-leninism and nazism.

Quote:I think the idea of eternal torture for not conforming to some standards can be pretty useful for a conditioned mind.

I think that anyone using words eternal torture and useful in the same sentence has some serious issues.

Quote:After the mind has adapted to those standards, it attains security (promise of paradise), so it's just a transient phase to effectively shift a mind to a desirable state.

Or maybe said mind is constantly afraid of falling short given that this particular sky daddy has "high" standard - Sodom and Gomorrah and number of innocents there. There's also this little problem of being born in something called sin.

Quote:The same things holds for legal systems. The fear of punishments causes a shift in how people perceive things as good and bad, so they would no longer want to play with the rules. After that they attain security by knowing that the legal system is on their side as long as they don't break the laws.

I doubt that eternal punishment dolled by genocidal and petty tyrant can be compared to quite sensible legal system of modern countries.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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30-07-2017, 04:30 AM
RE: An Essay on the Moral Argument
(30-07-2017 03:45 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  I think that anyone using words eternal torture and useful in the same sentence has some serious issues.
Let's call it "effective" instead of "useful". I'm just stating an obvious fact. Belief in these ideas can transform people in the shortest possible time.

Quote:Or maybe said mind is constantly afraid of falling short given that this particular sky daddy has "high" standard
At least in Christianity The Son fixed it, since he payed all the price and all people need to do is to believe in him. Are Christians committed to vast number of commandments in New and Old Testament? Clearly not. And all of them feel secure because they think Jesus will save them.

In Islam, people do one month of fasting and they pray on a daily basis, they also pay for charity and I think almost all of them hope they will be in paradise. That doesn't seem like a "high" standard to me. Fasting might be a bit tough though.

I don't know about Jews traditions, but I've head they are quite similar to Muslims.

I think most people who believe these ideas attain security after some time. I have never seen a believer who doesn't have any hope to be in paradise. I don't think they always remain in panic like you describe.

Quote:I doubt that eternal punishment dolled by genocidal and petty tyrant can be compared to quite sensible legal system of modern countries.
I think they are using the same mechanism to impose some standards. One can argue that the religious one is more effective, since the punishment isn't real, it doesn't inflict any real harm, yet it is quite effective, but the legal one is real and it is harmful in many instances.
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30-07-2017, 04:52 AM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2017 05:07 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: An Essay on the Moral Argument
(30-07-2017 04:30 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Let's call it "effective" instead of "useful". I'm just stating an obvious fact. Belief in these ideas can transform people in the shortest possible time.

Being indoctrinated with this abhorrent idea certainly can transform people on that we agree. Shortest possible time is up to you to prove.

Quote:At least in Christianity The Son fixed it, since he payed all the price and all people need to do is to believe in him. Are Christians committed to vast number of commandments in New and Old Testament? Clearly not. And all of them feel secure because they think Jesus will save them.

Sell your bullshit elsewhere. Christianity is divided in thousands denominations and saying that all of them (christians I presume) feel secure cause they think that Jesus will save them is nothing more than ridiculously big generalization. How do you know that few, many, majority of christians aren't afraid of ending in hell, when guilt is dumped upon them since childhood?

Quote:In Islam, people do one month of fasting and they pray on a daily basis, they also pay for charity and I think almost all of them hope they will be in paradise. That doesn't seem like a "high" standard to me. Fasting might be a bit tough though.

So?

Also all of them hope but how many are afraid that they don't cut it?

Quote:I don't know about Jews traditions, but I've head they are quite similar to Muslims.

I try to be silent on things I don't know.

Quote:I think most people who believe these ideas attain security after some time. I have never seen a believer who doesn't have any hope to be in paradise. I don't think they always remain in panic like you describe.

I think you're using assertions believing that they will sway me to your pov. I don't buy it.

Quote:I think they are using the same mechanism to impose some standards. One can argue that the religious one is more effective, since the punishment isn't real, it doesn't inflict any real harm, yet it is quite effective, but the legal one is real and it is harmful in many instances.

So anxieties or trouble chritians have with their sexuality aren't realm harm? Conversion therapies are myth? Religion backed prohibition of contraception, abortion and euthanasia aren't harmful? Also how you measure it's effectiveness? Maybe check the percentage of believers and atheists in US prisons before telling about how religion is effective in forcing people in being law abiding citizens? Or maybe remember the Reich - chritsian country - crimes?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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30-07-2017, 07:42 AM
RE: An Essay on the Moral Argument
Hmm. Torturing babies is objectively immoral, except when my special pal does it. Can't be having it both ways.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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30-07-2017, 07:54 AM
RE: An Essay on the Moral Argument
(30-07-2017 04:52 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Being indoctrinated with this abhorrent idea certainly can transform people on that we agree.
That was all I meant. This idea within the context of religion manages to effectively transform people without any real punishment and harm. You claim that many believers are left in anxiety and distress, I'm saying my observation is contrary to what you say, almost all instances that I have seen feel secure about the eternal punishment. This is merely my observation, and I'm not insisting on it. That's all.

Quote:So anxieties or trouble Christians have with their sexuality aren't realm harm?
That's another issue. I'm merely talking about the idea of eternal punishment. You are talking about other aspects of Christianity which could be harmful.

Quote:Maybe check the percentage of believers and atheists in US prisons before telling about how religion is effective in forcing people in being law abiding citizens?
I never said religions help people be better citizens. Religious laws have not much in common with legal laws, in fact they can go against legal laws in some instances.

Quote:Sell your bullshit elsewhere.

I think you're using assertions believing that they will sway me to your pov. I don't buy it.
I'm not selling anything and I'm not trying to sway your pov. I'm just expressing my opinion based on the many believers that I've seen.

I don't think I have anything to add, thanks for giving me the opportunity to express my thoughts on this.
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30-07-2017, 08:04 AM
RE: An Essay on the Moral Argument
(30-07-2017 07:42 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Hmm. Torturing babies is objectively immoral, except when my special pal does it. Can't be having it both ways.

Let's say it's your special pal's subjective opinion about what humans should and shouldn't do. But since he is the ultimate authority, everyone must obey or face the very bad consequences. Except himself of course.
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30-07-2017, 08:06 AM
RE: An Essay on the Moral Argument
(30-07-2017 07:54 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  That was all I meant. This idea within the context of religion manages to effectively transform people without any real punishment and harm.

Does it?

Quote:You claim that many believers are left in anxiety and distress,

Missed me using such words as maybe?

Quote:That's another issue. I'm merely talking about the idea of eternal punishment. You are talking about other aspects of Christianity which could be harmful.

Scaring or trying to scare people with idea of eternal punishment is harmful. If I would say that anyone who propagate such idea is piece of shit then it would be compliment. Vocabulary of greatest sages lack the words to describe horridity of idea of hell.

As for other aspects of this particular disease - they are harmful, not they can be.

Quote:I never said religions help people be better citizens. Religious laws have not much in common with legal laws, in fact they can go against legal laws in some instances.

Then religion is effective in what? In bamboozling people into giving their cash to people running this totalitarian wet dream?

Quote:I'm not selling anything and I'm not trying to sway your pov. I'm just expressing my opinion based on the many believers that I've seen.

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(30-07-2017 08:04 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(30-07-2017 07:42 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Hmm. Torturing babies is objectively immoral, except when my special pal does it. Can't be having it both ways.

Let's say it's your special pal's subjective opinion about what humans should and shouldn't do. But since he is the ultimate authority, everyone must obey or face the very bad consequences. Except himself of course.

Since when pathetic, tribal tyrant thought up by primitive people is ultimate authority? Sheep may think so but percentage of them not caring about what this sky Lenin wish is rather high - just look at acceptance of same sex unions in US.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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