An Essay on the Moral Argument
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13-07-2017, 09:23 PM
An Essay on the Moral Argument
(13-07-2017 08:02 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  
(13-07-2017 07:03 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  These sort of arguments tend to lack imagination, and offer a very narrow perspective on the variety of moral perspectives, that would fall into a theistic worldview, many of which are neutral to any particular God concept. While you can limit your argument to whatever concept of the christian God, and interpretation of the Bible you have in mind, the theistic perspective itself is not nearly as limited.

All that's required for me to subscribe to a theistic perspective of reality is belief in moral facts. A reality in which moral facts exists is not an inherently meaningless one, but one akin to that of a story, endowed with meaning, a moral arc.

For me, and I'd say most people, when it comes in particular to things that we find strongly immoral, such as torturing innocent children just for fun, we wouldn't view someone who believes it's a good thing as subjectively wrong, as we might say of someone who disagrees as to whether Bieber is a good singer, but we'd see it as objectively wrong, as we might say someone who thinks the earth is flat.

You can argue that a view of morality in such a way is unfounded, but what you can't argue is that it's subjective. You can your that persons such as myself hold a false belief, but you can't argue that it's subjective. Objective moral beliefs, don't transform into subjective ones by being wrong.

If you or anyone where to tell me something I'm doing or did is subjectively wrong, I'd say fuck you and your subjective morality. If you on the other hand believed that what I'm doing Is morally wrong in a real, truthful way, then I might have to pause and listen to you for a minute. If you try and tie whats right and wrong to the fleeting values of a society, I'd say fuck your society. Because your society don't give a fuck about me, I don't give a fuck about it. We're just business partners.



Under what philosophical pretense is Yahweh's morality not equally as subjective as our own?

If you think about the word subjective, if Yahweh is in fact the one true deity out of the thousands of gods within ancient polytheistic pantheons, and he is consistently 'subjecting' humanity to his skewed version of right and wrong (why are humans more humanistic than God?) is he not more of a moral relativistic tyrant than any human you can fathom?

Just a thought.


There’s vast territory between whatever concept of Yahweh, Christianity, etc you have in mind, and perspectives that fall under a theistic moral view, and that of a subjective and secular moral outlook. It’s not a choice between subjective morality and your caricature of Christianity.

I don’t need to subscribe to Christianity to believe that morality is not subjective, that moral facts exist, that reality is endowed with a moral order and purpose that we’re obligated and directed to. You may or may not be right about all that you have to say about Yahweh, and Christianity, but yea or nay it’s irrelevant to the point being made, which stands regardless.




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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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13-07-2017, 09:24 PM (This post was last modified: 13-07-2017 09:28 PM by M. Linoge.)
RE: An Essay on the Moral Argument
Quote:You think he'd be more clear on things considered morally non-negotiable nowadays.

Rape and slavery come immediately to mind. But yeah Drinking Beverage


Then again, that goes against the nature of religion.

Sorry, someone posted a brilliant argument in the Amazon forum on the subject and I can't recall the details. But basically, religions keep coming back to the Noah story; where god murders everything and everyone except one family. And all believers imagine themselves to be that family.

It doesn't matter whether anyone else can understand the divine message other than myself, since only the truly chosen are meant to receive it anyway.
God never intended to save everybody. Just me and people like me.

Or something along those lines.....
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13-07-2017, 10:42 PM
RE: An Essay on the Moral Argument
(13-07-2017 08:18 PM)M. Linoge Wrote:  Interesting read. Any criticism I have has already been covered by other posters.

One thing I might add is some statistics from countries where atheists outnumber theists. Like Japan or northern Europe.

[Image: Sweden.jpg]

If morality is only viable when from a divine source, why haven't these countries gone down in flames?

Fundamentalists will say that they have, for the circular reason that they no longer bow to the divine source but think for themselves.

How exactly moderate Christians rationalize this, I don't know.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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14-07-2017, 01:39 PM
RE: An Essay on the Moral Argument
(13-07-2017 07:03 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  For me, and I'd say most people, when it comes in particular to things that we find strongly immoral, such as torturing innocent children just for fun, we wouldn't view someone who believes it's a good thing as subjectively wrong, as we might say of someone who disagrees as to whether Bieber is a good singer, but we'd see it as objectively wrong, as we might say someone who thinks the earth is flat.

You can argue that a view of morality in such a way is unfounded, but what you can't argue is that it's subjective. You can your that persons such as myself hold a false belief, but you can't argue that it's subjective. Objective moral beliefs, don't transform into subjective ones by being wrong.
Believing the Earth is flat is objectively wrong because there is real, objective (ie. physical) evidence to the contrary.

How do you define a moral belief as "objective"? What real evidence is there?

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Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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14-07-2017, 01:44 PM
RE: An Essay on the Moral Argument
(13-07-2017 09:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don’t need to subscribe to Christianity to believe that morality is not subjective, that moral facts exist, that reality is endowed with a moral order and purpose that we’re obligated and directed to.

Really.

OK, name a "moral fact", and reference the evidence by which you are able to determine that it is indeed "factual".

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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14-07-2017, 07:57 PM
RE: An Essay on the Moral Argument
Mark 4, Luke 8, Matthew 13

Matthew 13
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.


14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

---


If Jesus is such a good guy (and is in fact is god himself), why does he not want to have everyone understand him and be converted and saved? Something is screwy here. Something does not make sense. Is this moral? Can Jesus/God be considered in light of this position to be compassionate, moral, just or good?

Yet many Xians tell me god wants to save everybody. Which is not what the Bible says nor is what Jesus/God does when given a chance to do so.

When Xians tell us God is good and moral and is the source of morality, what do they really mean?

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

Cheerful Charlie
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14-07-2017, 08:31 PM (This post was last modified: 14-07-2017 09:00 PM by M. Linoge.)
RE: An Essay on the Moral Argument
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15-07-2017, 06:27 PM
RE: An Essay on the Moral Argument
(14-07-2017 01:44 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(13-07-2017 09:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don’t need to subscribe to Christianity to believe that morality is not subjective, that moral facts exist, that reality is endowed with a moral order and purpose that we’re obligated and directed to.

Really.

OK, name a "moral fact", and reference the evidence by which you are able to determine that it is indeed "factual".
Going down the rabbit hole...
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15-07-2017, 06:46 PM
RE: An Essay on the Moral Argument
(14-07-2017 01:39 PM)Dr H Wrote:  How do you define a moral belief as "objective"? What real evidence is there?

An objective belief here is one that is either true or false. Imagine if you will a man who believes the earth is flat, his belief may be false, but what it's not is subjective.
It's not a subjective belief that the earth is flat, either it's objectively true, or objectively false.

The same applies to the bulk of humanity in that they subscribe to some form of objective view or morality. You can argue all you what that this belief is not grounded in sound evidence, is unfounded, based on ignorance etc... just like you can in regards to the belief that the earth is flat. But what you can't say is that these beliefs are subjective.

The sort of moral beliefs, positions, views that predominate our world are not subjective. If there is no objective morality, what this would mean is that our moral beliefs are false.

My point is not to convince you that objective morality is true. But if you what to introduce another concept of morality, a subjective version, that version gets a big fuck you. The one you want ground on your own personal whims, the whims of your society, is one only a fool would anchor himself too. The very idea of a subjective morality, is powerless entity, too lackluster and uncomplying to move the things it desires to move. You will not be able to move me one iota with it.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-07-2017, 06:53 PM
RE: An Essay on the Moral Argument
(14-07-2017 01:39 PM)Dr H Wrote:  Believing the Earth is flat is objectively wrong because there is real, objective (ie. physical) evidence to the contrary.

How do you define a moral belief as "objective"? What real evidence is there?

One thing I would do is question those who believe that their morality is subjective.

Do you believe morality is a matter of taste, as we might say about one's preferences in music, food, clothing, movies, etc...?

That when you say that something is morally wrong, what you really mean by such statements, is merely that I don't like x, or I like y, as we could say about pretty much anything else we refer to as subjective?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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