An European perspective
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08-12-2012, 03:34 AM
RE: An European perspective
I like to concentrate knowing on things that are interesting, Vera.

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08-12-2012, 03:41 AM
RE: An European perspective
(08-12-2012 03:34 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  I like to concentrate knowing on things that are interesting, Vera.
Fair enough. But don't pee in my punch bowl (or tankard of grog).

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08-12-2012, 07:01 AM
RE: An European perspective
(07-12-2012 02:46 AM)European Atheist Wrote:  Brief history of the protestand church of Finland: Finland was pagan land until 12th century when swedes brought catholic fate here. Finland became part of the swedish empire and was changed to protestant faith with the reformation and robbery of the swedish catholic church. Early 19th century Russian conquered Finland as part of a war with Sweden and the conflict with Napoleon. Russians keeped the protestant church here to keep the people happy and the protestant church of Finland was born.

There is this folk story about a pagan peasant called Lalli who killed the swedish bishop Henrik. Lalli is romanticed a lot and seen almost as some kind of a national hero and a model of "finnishnes". (Drunken, violent man who works his fields day and night and beats his family Hahaha)
Eh, I suppose its time to stop stalking. Welcome to the forum.

I actually have to disagree with your account here, though that is what we are taught in school (thanks 600 years of Swedish rule! Or that's the excuse I mostly hear...). However, current archaeological evidence shows that Christianity arrived to Finland perhaps as early as the 8th or 9th century, and that it and the local pagan beliefs co-existed for a long period of time. In fact by what I understand the old paganism didn't disappear until after Martin Luther inspired a certain fellow called Mikael Agricola to translate the bible to Finnish. And make up a written version of it in the process. Consider

And by the way, the Swedish "crusades" never happened, or at least there is no evidence of anything like that ever happening. And the Lalli story is also most likely fiction. However if you want a most likely true example, consider the case of Kirmu, a Finnish warlord or chieftain, who came to contact with an early christian (most likely a monk, as he was referred to as "Lord" or "Master of the hood/veil" (Hunnun Herra)). Eventually Kirmu killed this monk, in a rather gruesome way, as he didn't abandon his faith or stop preaching it. This is still a local legend in Vesilahti, I hear (thanks, Korpiklaani Wink ). There is small twist ending to this though, as eventually Kirmu did what most other warlords in middle-Europe had done before him, and changed to christinity in the hopes that this new "power god" would bring him more victories then the old ones.

Heh, sorry, I'm a bit of a history geek, so I couldn't shut up Tongue Anyway, I have to say that I completely with the opening post, as its almost exactly the same experience that I've had (well, I also have two younger brothers, the other is "agnostic" and the other is way too young to even start thinking about this in any depth IMO). And I'm also sorely disappointed in the religious education that we're given. There is a more secular option, however that is only open if neither of the parents is a member of any recognized religion, otherwise religion is a compulsory subject. And even then it essentially 5 years (from 3rd to 7th grade grade) of christinity, bible stories, church history and a more in depth study of the local denominations, and only 2 years (grades 8 and 9) to go over every other religion in the whole damn world. Dodgy Yeah, doesn't work, IMHO. Not that I would want them to drop the subject, but that it was more even handed. I was lucky in that I wasn't taught it as if it was absolutly historical fact (or at least I didn't see it that way. If it was, why was I studying it in religion classes and not history class? Some of you might know philhellenes' "Science saved my soul" video. I think I can say that history saved mine).

Well that's enough of a ramble, back to stalkin'....

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08-12-2012, 09:35 AM
RE: An European perspective
(08-12-2012 07:01 AM)Arctic_Guy Wrote:  However, current archaeological evidence shows that Christianity arrived to Finland perhaps as early as the 8th or 9th century, and that it and the local pagan beliefs co-existed for a long period of time.

Interesting, do you have sources for this? I would like to know more.

I can´t read Finnish but English or any other Scandinavian language will do Smile
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08-12-2012, 11:45 AM
RE: An European perspective
There is actually a wikipedia article, though only in Finnish and Russian (...I think) ( http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristinusko...a_Suomessa ), though I also remember an interactive site where I got those earlier number from, and which showed the places of . Unfortunately, I seem to find the damn thing.

Aside from that, there isn't much, but this:
http://www02.oph.fi/etalukio/uskonto/kur...5_2_1.html

It's a "distance" high school assignment (you know, study high school at home through a computer, not sure what it's called in English Blush ) and it starts counting at 9th century, which is seen as the point when Finland began receiving influences from both west and east, part of which is still with us today in our language, such the words "raamattu" (bible), "pakana" (heathen) etc.

Here's the wiki article (translated with google translate, with minor editing from me):

"History of Christianity in Finland stretches from the Crusades to the present day. Barely any early written sources of contact with Western Catholicism and the Finns have survived, and later historians have questioned the stories of the early spread of Catholicism in Finland. For example, Bishop Henry's Finland-oriented crusade is surrounded by controversy among researchers.
___________

Christianity is believed to have arrived in Finland from two directions: from Scandinavia to the west and Russia to the east by traders and missionaries. The tomb discoveries of Christian artifacts, such as crucifixes, have been found dating back to at least 900 AD, and in Kiev, Russia, Vladimir the Great is known to have been baptized in 988, which considerably sped up Christianity's spread in the East. Current information indicates that Sweden's Birka on the other hand, has had Christians since the 800's. [2] However, the idea that Finland's earliest contacts with Christianity came from the east, is supported by the fact that many of the key Christian words have come in to Finnish language from ancient Russian. These words are, for example, the priest, the pagan, the cross and the Bible.

The Hamburg-Bremen archbishops chronicle, written by Adam of Bremen around the year 1075 is considered the oldest possible source of the Christian church and its activities in Finland. It mentions Hiltinus, the Bishop of Birka, that a later amended to the chronicle defines as "Bishop of the islands in the Baltic Sea ". This has been interpreted as an indication that the bishop Hiltinus' task was also the Christians living east of the Baltic Sea, and to spread Christianity among them. There is no concrete evidence of Hiltinus' activities or that the "islands in the Baltic Sea" would also have included Finland.

It has been suggested that the Åland region, Vakka-Suomi, and Satakunta would have been in a political context, either in a union with or dependand of Sweden, which would have contributed to the Christian faith moving to Finland. The first archaeological evidence to support this include different types of tomb discoveries, the basis of whichis that these areas began to use a Christian (artifectless) funeral way from about 1000 AD. Similarly, a known account from the 1120 from the so-called Florence's note, in which Estonia and Finnish south-west are interpreted as being marked as Swedish provinces (Hestia and Findia). Hestia and Findia have also be explained mean the Swedish Gästrikland and Finnveden.



From the year 1171 also exists a Pope's letter, drawn up during the reign of Pope Alexander III, which deals with Finnish attitudes towards Christianity. The letter states, inter alia:

»Excessive heavy and difficult complaint is lodged with the Apostolic See that the Finns always, when they face an enemies army, promise to keep the Christian faith, and ask earnestly for Christian preachers to arrive and explain the law, but as the armies withdraw they deny the faith, despise it and severely persecute the preachers."

Letter words are stereotypical of the language of the Office itself, and do not provide detailed information about the true conditions in Finland. What is apparent, however, is that the establishment of ecclesiastical conditions was slow and cumbersome."

And yes, at the beginning they mean the Crusades in the middle east. The next bit is about "Bishop Henrik" that is supposed to have been slain by Lalli. It's rather interesting as well:

"According to legend, the English born Bishop Henry of Uppsala and the Swedish King Eric the Holy made a crusade to Finland ​​in about 1155. Since the earliest source describing this trip, the Legend Holy Eric, was written in the late 1200's, many historians questioned the veracity of the whole crusade. The Crusade is also described in the Finnish folk poem, Death hymn of Bishop Henry, which says Bishop Henry experienced martyrdom on the ice of Köyliönjärvi (järvi = lake). The oldest surviving manuscript for this account is from the 1600's.

However, in present study, it is not inconceivable that missions to Finland could have been supported by Swedish troops. On the other hand it has also been shown that the Swedish King Eric would hardly have been able to equip any great crusade due to his disputes with the Sverker family. Similarly, it has been said that crusade story may have been used to support and reinforce Eric's saint-cult, rather then act as a historical account of the events."

The last bit is just a remark that currently Catholicism is a registered religious group in Finland, that has about 10,000 members.

Well, that was fun. That's what I have currently though I'll keep looking for that one site. I know its there somewhere... Evil_monster

"Life - its the fun thing that happened on the way to the cemetery."
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09-12-2012, 04:16 AM
RE: An European perspective
(08-12-2012 11:45 AM)Arctic_Guy Wrote:  There is actually a wikipedia article, though only in Finnish and Russian (...I think) ( http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristinusko...a_Suomessa ), though I also remember an interactive site where I got those earlier number from, and which showed the places of . Unfortunately, I seem to find the damn thing.

Aside from that, there isn't much, but this:
http://www02.oph.fi/etalukio/uskonto/kur...5_2_1.html

It's a "distance" high school assignment (you know, study high school at home through a computer, not sure what it's called in English Blush ) and it starts counting at 9th century, which is seen as the point when Finland began receiving influences from both west and east, part of which is still with us today in our language, such the words "raamattu" (bible), "pakana" (heathen) etc.

Here's the wiki article (translated with google translate, with minor editing from me):

"History of Christianity in Finland stretches from the Crusades to the present day. Barely any early written sources of contact with Western Catholicism and the Finns have survived, and later historians have questioned the stories of the early spread of Catholicism in Finland. For example, Bishop Henry's Finland-oriented crusade is surrounded by controversy among researchers.
___________

Christianity is believed to have arrived in Finland from two directions: from Scandinavia to the west and Russia to the east by traders and missionaries. The tomb discoveries of Christian artifacts, such as crucifixes, have been found dating back to at least 900 AD, and in Kiev, Russia, Vladimir the Great is known to have been baptized in 988, which considerably sped up Christianity's spread in the East. Current information indicates that Sweden's Birka on the other hand, has had Christians since the 800's. [2] However, the idea that Finland's earliest contacts with Christianity came from the east, is supported by the fact that many of the key Christian words have come in to Finnish language from ancient Russian. These words are, for example, the priest, the pagan, the cross and the Bible.

The Hamburg-Bremen archbishops chronicle, written by Adam of Bremen around the year 1075 is considered the oldest possible source of the Christian church and its activities in Finland. It mentions Hiltinus, the Bishop of Birka, that a later amended to the chronicle defines as "Bishop of the islands in the Baltic Sea ". This has been interpreted as an indication that the bishop Hiltinus' task was also the Christians living east of the Baltic Sea, and to spread Christianity among them. There is no concrete evidence of Hiltinus' activities or that the "islands in the Baltic Sea" would also have included Finland.

It has been suggested that the Åland region, Vakka-Suomi, and Satakunta would have been in a political context, either in a union with or dependand of Sweden, which would have contributed to the Christian faith moving to Finland. The first archaeological evidence to support this include different types of tomb discoveries, the basis of whichis that these areas began to use a Christian (artifectless) funeral way from about 1000 AD. Similarly, a known account from the 1120 from the so-called Florence's note, in which Estonia and Finnish south-west are interpreted as being marked as Swedish provinces (Hestia and Findia). Hestia and Findia have also be explained mean the Swedish Gästrikland and Finnveden.



From the year 1171 also exists a Pope's letter, drawn up during the reign of Pope Alexander III, which deals with Finnish attitudes towards Christianity. The letter states, inter alia:

»Excessive heavy and difficult complaint is lodged with the Apostolic See that the Finns always, when they face an enemies army, promise to keep the Christian faith, and ask earnestly for Christian preachers to arrive and explain the law, but as the armies withdraw they deny the faith, despise it and severely persecute the preachers."

Letter words are stereotypical of the language of the Office itself, and do not provide detailed information about the true conditions in Finland. What is apparent, however, is that the establishment of ecclesiastical conditions was slow and cumbersome."

And yes, at the beginning they mean the Crusades in the middle east. The next bit is about "Bishop Henrik" that is supposed to have been slain by Lalli. It's rather interesting as well:

"According to legend, the English born Bishop Henry of Uppsala and the Swedish King Eric the Holy made a crusade to Finland ​​in about 1155. Since the earliest source describing this trip, the Legend Holy Eric, was written in the late 1200's, many historians questioned the veracity of the whole crusade. The Crusade is also described in the Finnish folk poem, Death hymn of Bishop Henry, which says Bishop Henry experienced martyrdom on the ice of Köyliönjärvi (järvi = lake). The oldest surviving manuscript for this account is from the 1600's.

However, in present study, it is not inconceivable that missions to Finland could have been supported by Swedish troops. On the other hand it has also been shown that the Swedish King Eric would hardly have been able to equip any great crusade due to his disputes with the Sverker family. Similarly, it has been said that crusade story may have been used to support and reinforce Eric's saint-cult, rather then act as a historical account of the events."

The last bit is just a remark that currently Catholicism is a registered religious group in Finland, that has about 10,000 members.

Well, that was fun. That's what I have currently though I'll keep looking for that one site. I know its there somewhere... Evil_monster
Cheers Smile I don´t know much about Finnish history and the activities of the Eastern church. The reason I asked was that I do not think the Western church had much activity in the Finnish area as early as the 9th century, but as you mentioned early direct influence could have come from east.
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09-12-2012, 09:36 AM
RE: An European perspective
(09-12-2012 04:16 AM)Gaest Wrote:  Cheers Smile I don´t know much about Finnish history and the activities of the Eastern church. The reason I asked was that I do not think the Western church had much activity in the Finnish area as early as the 9th century, but as you mentioned early direct influence could have come from east.
No problem. There is a small problem with early Finnish history, namely that nobody knows. We didn't have written language until the mentioned Mikael Agricola, and there are precious few outside sources. Instead of supporting a somewhat established traditional view that Finland was devoid of any significant social structure until these supposed "crusades", we have mentions of "King of Finland", but that said they are pretty scarce and come from sources that list trolls and the like as legitimate hazards.


But that's a personal gripe of mine that we can discuss at another time Big Grin

"Life - its the fun thing that happened on the way to the cemetery."
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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Voltaire
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09-12-2012, 10:21 AM
RE: An European perspective
(09-12-2012 09:36 AM)Arctic_Guy Wrote:  
(09-12-2012 04:16 AM)Gaest Wrote:  Cheers Smile I don´t know much about Finnish history and the activities of the Eastern church. The reason I asked was that I do not think the Western church had much activity in the Finnish area as early as the 9th century, but as you mentioned early direct influence could have come from east.
No problem. There is a small problem with early Finnish history, namely that nobody knows. We didn't have written language until the mentioned Mikael Agricola, and there are precious few outside sources. Instead of supporting a somewhat established traditional view that Finland was devoid of any significant social structure until these supposed "crusades", we have mentions of "King of Finland", but that said they are pretty scarce and come from sources that list trolls and the like as legitimate hazards.


But that's a personal gripe of mine that we can discuss at another time Big Grin
Well, just go to "The Casual Coffeehouse" or "This, That and The Other Thing" and throw down a thread called "Early Finnish history: Kings, trolls and social structure" Wink
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09-12-2012, 10:51 AM
RE: An European perspective
(09-12-2012 10:21 AM)Gaest Wrote:  Well, just go to "The Casual Coffeehouse" or "This, That and The Other Thing" and throw down a thread called "Early Finnish history: Kings, trolls and social structure" Wink
Now there's an idea, and I like the title too Big Grin Thumbsup

I'll have to do that, though I think I need to some time to pull together some more information and sources, first Smartass

"Life - its the fun thing that happened on the way to the cemetery."
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I live in the land of Santa, fool!
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Voltaire
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09-12-2012, 03:37 PM
RE: An European perspective
Thanks for brigning better information than i had Arctic_Guy. I was indeed taught that cristianity came from Sweden in the 12th century. However i didn't mean there was a "swedish crusade" or that the Lalli story is true. What i ment was that finnish sympathy is clearly with Lalli who brutally murdered the bishop. In the story.
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