An Exercise in Objective Morality
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19-06-2014, 10:09 AM
RE: An Exercise in Objective Morality
(19-06-2014 08:19 AM)Luminon Wrote:  I will worry about such questions when people like Obama stop killing perfectly healthy and viable children all over the Middle East.

Oh, look - a distraction!

(19-06-2014 08:19 AM)Luminon Wrote:  And yet you use language that you hope to objectively pass into our eyes and evoke an appropriate response from us. You know that objectivity exists.

Presuppositionalism: it's not just for theists anymore!

(19-06-2014 08:19 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Objectivity and morality may exist, but that doesn't mean there always will be ideal choices that satisfy everyone or that there will be no grey areas. Grey areas aren't immoral, they just make us feel like shit and try better prevention next time.

Objective ambiguity and objective disagreement, eh? That's another way of saying not objective.

(19-06-2014 08:19 AM)Luminon Wrote:  We are born thinking entirely logically. (Allison Gopnik, The Philosophical Baby)

Bwahahahahahaha.

FUCK NO.

(19-06-2014 08:19 AM)Luminon Wrote:  The reason why our minds are unreliable, is because we learn culture and our culture is a big self-perpetuating mental virus. Religious indoctrination is bad enough, but there's a plenty of other cultural indoctrination. And trauma. Logical baby mind has a problem with learning the mental virus of culture and has to be bullied and broken by parents into submission.
Our brains are powerful computers to process morality and objectivity, they are just broken by all the viruses and Trojan horses of culture. Getting rid of these viruses is one of the most painful and difficult thing to do. It is like being very religious in several religions and then losing faith in all of them, only it's not about some invisible gods far away, culture is the religion of daily life, of love, relationships, property, business, art, speech and freedom.

Self-obsessed unfalsifiable codswallop.

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19-06-2014, 10:29 AM
RE: An Exercise in Objective Morality
(19-06-2014 09:22 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Learn to logic. Seriously go take a course on logic and how it works because you do not understand it.
I won't, because you obviously know less than me about logic. If you knew as much as I do, you would know that this statement tells me nothing. It does not address any specific problems.

(19-06-2014 10:09 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Presuppositionalism: it's not just for theists anymore!
Well, boo! World doesn't come clean and sterilized as a Petri dish, it comes with pre-packaged functions.

(19-06-2014 10:09 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(19-06-2014 08:19 AM)Luminon Wrote:  We are born thinking entirely logically. (Allison Gopnik, The Philosophical Baby)

Bwahahahahahaha.

FUCK NO.
You're right, my bad. We are not born thinking objectively. I should have said we are born thinking rationally and scientifically (doing empirical tests).
http://www.wecanchange.co.za/Editors/Art...tists.aspx
So basically, they naturally gain objectivity.

(19-06-2014 10:09 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Self-obsessed unfalsifiable codswallop.
Laugh out load I was being passionate there Cool
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19-06-2014, 11:11 AM
RE: An Exercise in Objective Morality
(19-06-2014 10:29 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(19-06-2014 10:09 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Presuppositionalism: it's not just for theists anymore!
Well, boo! World doesn't come clean and sterilized as a Petri dish, it comes with pre-packaged functions.

Even if that were true - I'll grant it for the sake of this sentence - that does not imply that whatever you claim as such has any relation to what is or is not actually true. That would require substantiation.

(19-06-2014 10:29 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(19-06-2014 10:09 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Bwahahahahahaha.

FUCK NO.
You're right, my bad. We are not born thinking objectively. I should have said we are born thinking rationally and scientifically (doing empirical tests).
http://www.wecanchange.co.za/Editors/Art...tists.aspx

Only insofar as they are still bound by those same pervasive biases and fallacies. That's the whole point.

The point of intellectual education is to recognise and compensate for those deficiencies in our own reasoning.

(19-06-2014 10:29 AM)Luminon Wrote:  So basically, they naturally gain objectivity.

Not really. At all.

(19-06-2014 10:29 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(19-06-2014 10:09 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Self-obsessed unfalsifiable codswallop.
Laugh out load I was being passionate there Cool

That's no indicator of validity.

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25-06-2014, 12:44 PM
RE: An Exercise in Objective Morality
Its an oxymoron. Objective means independent of human beings, and morality is valuing or NOT valuing certain actions. You cannot have objective value.

“Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way.

-Christopher Hitchens
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25-06-2014, 02:43 PM
My Thoughts On Objective Morality
I might take "objective morality" a little more seriously if I thought that the religious people who refer to it actually lived their lives better a a result of their adherence to it. My own experience has taught me that I personally can manage a higher standard of morality based on my own subjective efforts. I can do a better job without resorting to unnecessary multiplied entities. Even if I considered it more seriously I don't see how I would determine which god has the objective standard of morality that I ought to adhere to. They all conflict openly with one another with the same arguments appealing to the authority of flawed ancient books and human "witnesses".

This is merely another arena where believers insist on halting the discussion and progression via the claim that we already possess everything we need to know about morality. Why learn and grow when you can be a know it all? Best of all you can blame your asinine attitude on a supernatural being.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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25-06-2014, 03:21 PM
RE: An Exercise in Objective Morality
(25-06-2014 02:43 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  I might take "objective morality" a little more seriously if I thought that the religious people who refer to it actually lived their lives better a a result of their adherence to it. My own experience has taught me that I personally can manage a higher standard of morality based on my own subjective efforts. I can do a better job without resorting to unnecessary multiplied entities. Even if I considered it more seriously I don't see how I would determine which god has the objective standard of morality that I ought to adhere to. They all conflict openly with one another with the same arguments appealing to the authority of flawed ancient books and human "witnesses".

This is merely another arena where believers insist on halting the discussion and progression via the claim that we already possess everything we need to know about morality. Why learn and grow when you can be a know it all? Best of all you can blame your asinine attitude on a supernatural being.
Yeah, I must agree that a supernatural being adds nothing to the debate on morality. In fact, I have argued to a believer in a private conversation, that if the world was created by God, then we should be able to know objective morality even without God. It's not like all that was created by Satan and Jesus is the only stronghold of morality in the universe. Morality should be pretty much in the basis of the world.

So we've got that much down. But I must take you for your word. What do you mean by learning and growing? For example, I was raised by self-centered, violent hypocrites. My parents have always treated strangers better than me. They feared what strangers might think of say about them in the public and they did not hesitate to frighten, shame and punish me in the private. And when I told my mom what was that like, she told me, among other things, to stop being such a sissy and grow up.
Even though she did terrible things, she supposedly meant well, which makes everything all right and I am guilty for not reading in her mind magically that she meant well.

And my upbringing was mostly secular. So I personally love discussions about morality that go a bit deeper than God not being the source of morality. I know that about a half of USA is not there yet, but it's a little clearer where I live and it's still not good enough by far.
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25-06-2014, 05:56 PM
RE: An Exercise in Objective Morality
Whenever I hear someone claim objective morality, it usually comes from a christian.
These are the same folks who also claim their god gave them free will.
These two ideas are in direct conflict.

Even if objective morality existed, free will cancels it out by making it subject to interpretation.
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25-06-2014, 06:20 PM
RE: An Exercise in Objective Morality
(25-06-2014 05:56 PM)pablo628 Wrote:  Whenever I hear someone claim objective morality, it usually comes from a christian.
These are the same folks who also claim their god gave them free will.
These two ideas are in direct conflict.

Even if objective morality existed, free will cancels it out by making it subject to interpretation.
What have you read about objective morality? I might use a tip, because I have read about three books making a case for objective morality, but only from one author. Would you be interested in reading them? None of them is Bible, they're free and you're not immoral if you say no Wink
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25-06-2014, 06:21 PM
RE: An Exercise in Objective Morality
(25-06-2014 05:56 PM)pablo628 Wrote:  Whenever I hear someone claim objective morality, it usually comes from a christian.
These are the same folks who also claim their god gave them free will.
These two ideas are in direct conflict.

Even if objective morality existed, free will cancels it out by making it subject to interpretation.

If there were such a thing as "objective morality", then we would be hard-wired to it and there would never, ever be any conflicts over what is and isn't "moral". We wouldn't even be aware of any other way.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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25-06-2014, 06:25 PM
RE: An Exercise in Objective Morality
(25-06-2014 06:21 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(25-06-2014 05:56 PM)pablo628 Wrote:  Whenever I hear someone claim objective morality, it usually comes from a christian.
These are the same folks who also claim their god gave them free will.
These two ideas are in direct conflict.

Even if objective morality existed, free will cancels it out by making it subject to interpretation.

If there were such a thing as "objective morality", then we would be hard-wired to it and there would never, ever be any conflicts over what is and isn't "moral". We wouldn't even be aware of any other way.

That's where "free will" fucks it all up. They can't have both.
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