An Exercise in Objective Morality
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25-06-2014, 06:36 PM
RE: An Exercise in Objective Morality
(25-06-2014 06:25 PM)pablo628 Wrote:  
(25-06-2014 06:21 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  If there were such a thing as "objective morality", then we would be hard-wired to it and there would never, ever be any conflicts over what is and isn't "moral". We wouldn't even be aware of any other way.

That's where "free will" fucks it all up. They can't have both.

Yabut they're still gonna try and see if they can't get away with it -- which brings up the whole issue of a basic overarching dishonesty.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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25-06-2014, 06:40 PM
RE: An Exercise in Objective Morality
(25-06-2014 06:36 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(25-06-2014 06:25 PM)pablo628 Wrote:  That's where "free will" fucks it all up. They can't have both.

Yabut they're still gonna try and see if they can't get away with it -- which brings up the whole issue of a basic overarching dishonesty.

Well, yea that's to be expected. Thumbsup
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26-06-2014, 01:23 AM
RE: An Exercise in Objective Morality
(25-06-2014 03:21 PM)Luminon Wrote:  So we've got that much down. But I must take you for your word. What do you mean by learning and growing? For example, I was raised by self-centered, violent hypocrites. My parents have always treated strangers better than me. They feared what strangers might think of say about them in the public and they did not hesitate to frighten, shame and punish me in the private. And when I told my mom what was that like, she told me, among other things, to stop being such a sissy and grow up. Even though she did terrible things, she supposedly meant well, which makes everything all right and I am guilty for not reading in her mind magically that she meant well.

Sure. I can give an example of my own. When I was a young boy around age ten I had already received a hefty amount of religious instruction. I had been taught that lying was a sin under any circumstances. My early understanding of this moral commandment was devoid of grey area. However, it wasn't long before my morality on the subject would evolve. The explanation requires background.

Like you, I had very abusive parents. My father declared himself the spiritual ruler of our home. He took control of myself, my two brothers, and my mother in the name of God. He constructed a meticulous design of what our lives ought to be like and how we ought to live them. He would tolerate no disobedience. To disobey him was to disobey god. He himself was very gentle because all the dirty work was accomplished through the teachings of Mormonism. It was very clear to all of us that our eternal future as a family was in jeopardy at the slightest hint of noncompliance with god's/Dad's plan. He combined this spiritual blackmail with waves of emotional blackmail. When you did as you were instructed he would open his love to you and spend time with you as a father normally does. When you disobeyed him, or chose other activities over what he suggested, he would emotionally close off from you, shutting you out. The only contact after that would be long dark looks of sadness, as though you had wounded him deeply, or bouts of aggressive interrogation about your disobedience. The only way to get right with him was to get right with god, after which his love and understanding would return until the next time the process repeated itself.

Although she was the only adult in this abusive situation and the only person capable of putting an end to it, my mother turned timid. She believed in the spiritual aspect of everything enough that she could not object on theological grounds. However, she was much more moderate than him and was unable to accept his authority over her in all things. She began privately resisting him. For example, caffeinated drinks were forbidden to drink, but she would always buy one the minute he left for work and sip on it all morning by her computer. Whenever she could she would help us do the same.

She wasn't perfect at it though, and many times she had to pay the price for helping us. Whenever one of us would get caught doing something unauthorized my father would punish my mother for her lack of vigilance and discipline. She always got the worst of his manipulation and blackmail. He would corner her in their bedroom where he could berate and guilt trip her in privacy. For years I remember her emerging after literally hours of this so broken in spirit that the tears couldn't flow anymore. She would just cough and blow her nose from crying so much.

It didn't take long for me to figure out what I had to do. I lied. A lot. At every opportunity I lied to my father in order to protect my mother. I learned the hard lesson that lying wasn't always immoral, because I was doing it to make my mother suffer a little less than she would have otherwise. I knew it was the right thing to do, even though it conflicted with my religious lessons on morality.

The point is simple. Morality doesn't end with religion. There is an evolution to explore. "learning and growing" as I put it before.

Just as a quick example on a larger scale, slavery was once acceptable in many cultures, yet is now practically abolished on moral grounds the world over. We as a species are evolving morality all the time. Deciding that bronze age texts have all the answers for questions of today is only going to slow us down or reverse our hard earned progress.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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26-06-2014, 01:34 AM
RE: An Exercise in Objective Morality
(25-06-2014 06:20 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(25-06-2014 05:56 PM)pablo628 Wrote:  Whenever I hear someone claim objective morality, it usually comes from a christian.
These are the same folks who also claim their god gave them free will.
These two ideas are in direct conflict.

Even if objective morality existed, free will cancels it out by making it subject to interpretation.
What have you read about objective morality? I might use a tip, because I have read about three books making a case for objective morality, but only from one author. Would you be interested in reading them? None of them is Bible, they're free and you're not immoral if you say no Wink

I can't guarantee I'll read them, but sure send me the titles.
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26-06-2014, 07:18 AM
RE: An Exercise in Objective Morality
(25-06-2014 06:20 PM)Luminon Wrote:  What have you read about objective morality? I might use a tip, because I have read about three books making a case for objective morality, but only from one author. Would you be interested in reading them? None of them is Bible, they're free and you're not immoral if you say no Wink

You tried this elsewhere last week and no one agreed with you.
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26-06-2014, 07:33 AM (This post was last modified: 26-06-2014 07:39 AM by Luminon.)
RE: An Exercise in Objective Morality
(26-06-2014 07:18 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  You tried this elsewhere last week and no one agreed with you.
I was a real asshole last week. I don't know myself and I'm learning so much every week that I'm a halfway different person each month. It's so fast that I don't even apologize, because the reasons for apologies change so fast Tongue
However, the books remain the same and they stand or fall on their own merit.
And I believe people who are interested in talking about objective morality might be interested in non-Christian books on the subject.
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26-06-2014, 10:18 AM
RE: An Exercise in Objective Morality
(26-06-2014 07:33 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(26-06-2014 07:18 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  You tried this elsewhere last week and no one agreed with you.
I was a real asshole last week.

Hasn't changed from any other time.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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30-06-2014, 09:25 AM
RE: An Exercise in Objective Morality
Hmmmm..


P1) An Objective Morality is one that exists independent of any entity.

P2) The xtian deity, as depicted by xtians, is an entity.

C1) The xtian deity cannot be the source of an Objective Morality.


Checkmate, theists.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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