An Odd Thought on the American Military
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09-07-2013, 02:54 PM
RE: An Odd Thought on the American Military
(09-07-2013 02:40 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(04-07-2013 11:09 AM)JAH Wrote:  Vietnam was the time when I began to understand our military was flawed. They tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional tactics and lost. They did not know their own history.

We lost 58,193 combatants. The North Vietnamese lost over 1,100,000 combatants. It was hardly a militaristic victory for the Vietnamese.

In war you do not fight to the last man that has only happened a few times in history and it is always remembered, The Pass at Thermopylae, Hannibal's Enclosure of the Romans, the Jewish Defenders at Masada, The Alamo. Most wars are fought until one side reaches their "Pain Limit" or the amount of losses they willing to suffer. Vietnam is the best example of a nonsymmetrical Pain threshold. The Vietcong were willing to suffer up to a 20 to 1 loss ratio which was many many times more than the Americas were willing to lose.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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09-07-2013, 03:30 PM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2013 03:34 PM by Logica Humano.)
RE: An Odd Thought on the American Military
(09-07-2013 02:54 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(09-07-2013 02:40 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  We lost 58,193 combatants. The North Vietnamese lost over 1,100,000 combatants. It was hardly a militaristic victory for the Vietnamese.

In war you do not fight to the last man that has only happened a few times in history and it is always remembered, The Pass at Thermopylae, Hannibal's Enclosure of the Romans, the Jewish Defenders at Masada, The Alamo. Most wars are fought until one side reaches their "Pain Limit" or the amount of losses they willing to suffer. Vietnam is the best example of a nonsymmetrical Pain threshold. The Vietcong were willing to suffer up to a 20 to 1 loss ratio which was many many times more than the Americas were willing to lose.

We pulled our troops out because our population recognized that it was an unjust war, not because we reached our "pain limit". Militarily, we were pulverizing communist resistance on the peninsula. In addition, what they were willing to sacrifice is totally irrelevant. Even in our exit, we inflicted more mortalities on the NV forces than we have had in all of the wars we have participated in combined.

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09-07-2013, 03:39 PM
RE: An Odd Thought on the American Military
(09-07-2013 02:40 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  We lost 58,193 combatants. The North Vietnamese lost over 1,100,000 combatants. It was hardly a militaristic victory for the Vietnamese.

Where did you hear a figure like that, if you don't mind my asking?

Because numbers I've seen are around that many deaths for all of Indochina in those years (or, alternatively, merely for all of Vietnam, if one is using the high end of estimates) attributable to the war(s), with a breakdown roughly equal between NV+SV combatants, NV+SV civilians, Laotians, and Cambodians.

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09-07-2013, 03:41 PM
RE: An Odd Thought on the American Military
(09-07-2013 03:30 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(09-07-2013 02:54 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  In war you do not fight to the last man that has only happened a few times in history and it is always remembered, The Pass at Thermopylae, Hannibal's Enclosure of the Romans, the Jewish Defenders at Masada, The Alamo. Most wars are fought until one side reaches their "Pain Limit" or the amount of losses they willing to suffer. Vietnam is the best example of a nonsymmetrical Pain threshold. The Vietcong were willing to suffer up to a 20 to 1 loss ratio which was many many times more than the Americas were willing to lose.

We pulled our troops out because our population recognized that it was an unjust war, not because we reached our "pain limit". Militarily, we were pulverizing communist resistance on the peninsula. In addition, what they were willing to sacrifice is totally irrelevant. Even in our exit, we inflicted more mortalities on the NV forces than we have had in all of the wars we have participated in combined.

I know all that, but if the vietnamese pain limit was as low as the Americans they never would have lasted until the pull out.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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09-07-2013, 03:53 PM
RE: An Odd Thought on the American Military
(09-07-2013 03:41 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I know all that, but if the vietnamese pain limit was as low as the Americans they never would have lasted until the pull out.

But the only reason that we ever pulled out was because the American people recognized we were not fighting a justified war. Had we been directly provoked like, say, during World War II, we would have completely destroyed Vietnamese, Laotian, and Cambodian resistance. I have proved that the presented criticism for American military prowess and strength is incorrect.

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09-07-2013, 04:01 PM
RE: An Odd Thought on the American Military
(09-07-2013 03:53 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(09-07-2013 03:41 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I know all that, but if the vietnamese pain limit was as low as the Americans they never would have lasted until the pull out.

But the only reason that we ever pulled out was because the American people recognized we were not fighting a justified war. Had we been directly provoked like, say, during World War II, we would have completely destroyed Vietnamese, Laotian, and Cambodian resistance. I have proved that the presented criticism for American military prowess and strength is incorrect.

Thats nice, it wasn't what I was arguing in fact if you look at my earlier post in the thread you'll see I am on your side. Smile I was merely bring up an oft neglected fact about warfare.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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09-07-2013, 04:20 PM
RE: An Odd Thought on the American Military
(09-07-2013 04:01 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(09-07-2013 03:53 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  But the only reason that we ever pulled out was because the American people recognized we were not fighting a justified war. Had we been directly provoked like, say, during World War II, we would have completely destroyed Vietnamese, Laotian, and Cambodian resistance. I have proved that the presented criticism for American military prowess and strength is incorrect.

Thats nice, it wasn't what I was arguing in fact if you look at my earlier post in the thread you'll see I am on your side. Smile I was merely bring up an oft neglected fact about warfare.

That is why I didn't say that it was "your" presented criticism.

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10-07-2013, 07:37 AM
RE: An Odd Thought on the American Military
(09-07-2013 03:30 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(09-07-2013 02:54 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  In war you do not fight to the last man that has only happened a few times in history and it is always remembered, The Pass at Thermopylae, Hannibal's Enclosure of the Romans, the Jewish Defenders at Masada, The Alamo. Most wars are fought until one side reaches their "Pain Limit" or the amount of losses they willing to suffer. Vietnam is the best example of a nonsymmetrical Pain threshold. The Vietcong were willing to suffer up to a 20 to 1 loss ratio which was many many times more than the Americas were willing to lose.

We pulled our troops out because our population recognized that it was an unjust war, not because we reached our "pain limit". Militarily, we were pulverizing communist resistance on the peninsula. In addition, what they were willing to sacrifice is totally irrelevant. Even in our exit, we inflicted more mortalities on the NV forces than we have had in all of the wars we have participated in combined.

Yes, the US pulled out because the war was unjust, but the US was also losing the War. After the 1968 Tet Offensive, General Westmoreland said the US was victorius because:

1. The US had Driven the Viet Cong out of the cities
2. The US had killed a lot of Viet Cong

But...what did General Westmoreland NOT say? Well he forgot to add the following:

1. The Viet Cong had retaken the countryside and it's villages - their traditional stronghold
2. Viet Cong losses were almost instantly replaced with North Vietnamese Regulars.

As a result, the Viet Cong were stronger than ever and continued gaining strength throughout the war.

The Lesson: Body Counts do not always equal Victory and the ultimate proof is that the US no longer has any political or military clout in Vietnam. North Vietnam won.

In 1970, China also tried to impose it's will on Vietnam. The Chinese Army invaded Vietnam in an effort to convince the Vietnamese Government to suspend operations in Cambodia. Less than a month later, the Chinese Army declared Victory and left Vietnam. Meanwhile, Vietnam continued their operations in Cambodia and founded a new Cambodian government (a government without the madman Pol Pot).

So...here we have two superpowers claiming military victory over Vietnam, yet Vietnam continues to do what it damn-well pleases. It's kind of funny, isn't it?
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10-07-2013, 07:44 AM
RE: An Odd Thought on the American Military
(10-07-2013 07:37 AM)Julius Wrote:  
(09-07-2013 03:30 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  We pulled our troops out because our population recognized that it was an unjust war, not because we reached our "pain limit". Militarily, we were pulverizing communist resistance on the peninsula. In addition, what they were willing to sacrifice is totally irrelevant. Even in our exit, we inflicted more mortalities on the NV forces than we have had in all of the wars we have participated in combined.

Yes, the US pulled out because the war was unjust, but the US was also losing the War. After the 1968 Tet Offensive, General Westmoreland said the US was victorius because:

1. The US had Driven the Viet Cong out of the cities
2. The US had killed a lot of Viet Cong

But...what did General Westmoreland NOT say? Well he forgot to add the following:

1. The Viet Cong had retaken the countryside and it's villages - their traditional stronghold
2. Viet Cong losses were almost instantly replaced with North Vietnamese Regulars.

As a result, the Viet Cong were stronger than ever and continued gaining strength throughout the war.

The Lesson: Body Counts do not always equal Victory and the ultimate proof is that the US no longer has any political or military clout in Vietnam. North Vietnam won.

In 1970, China also tried to impose it's will on Vietnam. The Chinese Army invaded Vietnam in an effort to convince the Vietnamese Government to suspend operations in Cambodia. Less than a month later, the Chinese Army declared Victory and left Vietnam. Meanwhile, Vietnam continued their operations in Cambodia and founded a new Cambodian government (a government without the madman Pol Pot).

So...here we have two superpowers claiming military victory over Vietnam, yet Vietnam continues to do what it damn-well pleases. It's kind of funny, isn't it?

You are incorrect. The war was a clear, undisputed military victory. We lost in maintaining strong political justification for the war.

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10-07-2013, 07:48 AM
RE: An Odd Thought on the American Military
(09-07-2013 03:39 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-07-2013 02:40 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  We lost 58,193 combatants. The North Vietnamese lost over 1,100,000 combatants. It was hardly a militaristic victory for the Vietnamese.

Where did you hear a figure like that, if you don't mind my asking?

Because numbers I've seen are around that many deaths for all of Indochina in those years (or, alternatively, merely for all of Vietnam, if one is using the high end of estimates) attributable to the war(s), with a breakdown roughly equal between NV+SV combatants, NV+SV civilians, Laotians, and Cambodians.

The lowest estimate puts the figures at 950,000 North Vietnamese casualties. The Vietnamese government places it at 1.1 million casualties. The highest estimate is approximately 1.5 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War...ary_deaths

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