An argument I HATE !!!
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28-04-2011, 07:33 PM
An argument I HATE !!!
I hate the following argument :

"For those that believe no proof is necessary ;
For those that do not , no proof is sufficient "

I can't remember its origins but it drives me mad. It puts you in an impossible position. That's like a blond telling a brunette : 'all blonds are beautiful no matter what they wear and all brunettes are ugly no matter what they wear'.
It just feels like an impossible argument , and I'm sure its a logical fallacy but I just can't put my finger on it. Any help ? How do I counter this ?

Atheism is a religion like OFF is a TV channel !!!

Proud of my genetic relatives Big Grin
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28-04-2011, 07:58 PM
RE: An argument I HATE !!!
Punch them in the face. When they ask why you did that answer, "What you just said was proof enough to determine whether or not I should punch you."

If you don't want to face assault charges you could always just shake your head and walk away. If someone is incapable of defending themselves without resorting to bullshit then they aren't worth it anyhow.

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28-04-2011, 08:05 PM
 
RE: An argument I HATE !!!
Ah, dear old Stuart Chase. Belief isn't proof and proof isn't proof simply because someone believes.

You could always counter that inane argument / quote with a little Twain. Wink
“One of the proofs of the immortality of the soul is that myriads have believed it - they also believed the world was flat.” Mark Twain
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28-04-2011, 09:15 PM
RE: An argument I HATE !!!
That's for stupid people who don't understand either what atheism is or what the quote means. I respond with a resounding ignore.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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28-04-2011, 09:45 PM
RE: An argument I HATE !!!
(28-04-2011 07:33 PM)gaglamesh731 Wrote:  It just feels like an impossible argument , and I'm sure its a logical fallacy but I just can't put my finger on it. Any help ? How do I counter this ?

Bare assertion fallacy, with a slight side of straw man.

It's an argument with no basis. It only has power if you don't question its basic premise - that people who don't believe in something never will. That statement is demonstrably untrue.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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29-04-2011, 02:57 AM
RE: An argument I HATE !!!
For those who believe, no proof is necessary. That's just instantly explaining why they burned witches, why they went on crusades, why they killed non-blievers, cause by not needing proof you're pretty much asking to be manipulated.

Never having enough proof is also part of skepticism (a bit extreme though), what's wrong with that? Demanding proof means you're considering your decisions. The argument you quoted mainly pulls it to the extreme. If we would be that extreme with things we wouldn't accept Darwinism.
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29-04-2011, 06:53 AM
RE: An argument I HATE !!!
Ask them to define "proof." If their "proof" is personal experience I just tell them that I too have had unbelievable personal experiences that they cannot prove wrong. Including 1) Sex with a unicorn 2) Abduction by aliens from an all female planet 3) I have seen the core of a star 4) Time Travel!. If they are still willing to talk after these "experiences" then perhaps we can agree to stick with actual evidence and not bull$Hit.

If their "proof" is the bible then that is pretty easy, as many others have stated on these forums. Just ask them why it is true and not the Qu'ran or the Torah or Egyptian hieroglyphs or the Roman/Greek mythologies? If they use the "It says it is true?" argument just go to the L. Ron Hubbard example. He wrote some interesting science fiction that people seem to gravitate towards because it is explained as "truth."

Then again perhaps Green's first suggestion of punching them in the face is not such a bad idea Tongue

Evolve
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29-04-2011, 07:05 AM
RE: An argument I HATE !!!
(28-04-2011 07:33 PM)gaglamesh731 Wrote:  I hate the following argument :

"For those that believe no proof is necessary ;
For those that do not , no proof is sufficient "

The first part is certainly true.
The second is just as certainly false, but the two statements are presented as if they belonged together.
Tell them: "Try just one proof and let's see where that takes us."

It's not the mean god I have trouble with - it's the people who worship a mean god.
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29-04-2011, 07:47 AM
RE: An argument I HATE !!!
I agree with unbeliever...

Straw-man:
Assuming no proof is sufficient is assuming the sceptic would not want to be persuaded in the fist place.

Bigotry is for theists

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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29-04-2011, 09:41 AM
RE: An argument I HATE !!!
"For those that believe no proof is necessary ;
For those that do not , no proof is sufficient "

It does not matter to a religious person as they base their belief on "faith" as a sense of their own proof, they brainwash themselves just as much as the religion does! Atheists base their beliefs on reason and logic. All religions can never present to us one belief that is based on reason and logic. They can never rise to this challenge. We scream out to them at times for proof. Instead they give up by saying that they have faith and we do not and we are going to hell and they are not. Quite a childish response just like the argument presented here in this thread! Proof is sufficient for those that do not believe. On the other hand, the "proof" that those who believe present to us in debates and conversations is quite frankly not good enough!

Quote:"Religion poisons everything." - Christopher Hitchens
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