An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
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16-12-2013, 08:02 PM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
I missed this in my last post:

(16-12-2013 05:21 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(16-12-2013 03:07 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Note how they trace the genealogy of Jesus (twice, and different each time!), going up through Joseph, who's not even his father! They didn't even trace it through Mary.
Mary was descendent of David. His moral mother's blood was in Jesus.

Does the Bible ever explicitly list Mary's lineage or say that she was a descendant of David? If so, where?

By the way, I think you mean "mortal".
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16-12-2013, 10:16 PM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(16-12-2013 08:02 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I missed this in my last post:

(16-12-2013 05:21 PM)Alla Wrote:  Mary was descendent of David. His moral mother's blood was in Jesus.

Does the Bible ever explicitly list Mary's lineage or say that she was a descendant of David?

Yes. The daughter of Heli. And Joseph, by marrying Mary became the son-in-law of Heli.
(Hence the confusion among bible skeptics about how someone can have two 'fathers'.)

(16-12-2013 08:02 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  If so, where?...

Luke 3.
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17-12-2013, 08:38 AM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(04-04-2011 02:35 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Yep. This is gonna be a long one.

Feel free to throw your own logical dissections at any time.


GENESIS


First off, I'm skipping the whole "how were plants created before light/photosynthesis, how was light created before the sun, contradictions of which was created first" word games. Those take up too much time and words and pie.


1:16 "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."

-The moon is not a light, it is a reflection of the sun's light. This is the first of many examples that suggest that God's omnipotence seems to be limited to the knowledge of the demographics and time period of when the Bible was written. Strange.


1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

-Our? Just how many gods are there?


2:2 "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made."

-even though they say that God only "rested" to set an example of how would should rest on the 7th day, couldn't the Bible just say "rest on Sunday" ??(question mark)? It clearly says God rested, which means that this all-powerful being was worn out from all those valleys and hills and Wyoming and platypuses.


The Garden and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil


-Sooooo... God takes these 2 newly formed, ignorant to life humans, puts them in a garden with a tree bearing food, nonchalantly goes "don't eat from it" ... then leaves... to go make Venus, I guess. And you know the rest.

So... WHY did he put them near the tree? WHY did he have that which he didn't want humans to attain be edible and tempting? WHY did he leave? WHY did he allow Satan the Snake to be in the garden, knowing full well that he would tempt them? Why did God design these 2 humans to be susceptible to temptation?

Then God comes strolling by (3:8 "walking in the garden in the cool of the day") at the PRECISE moment after they eat the fruit and goes "whoa whoa, what's going on here?" (I'm paraphrasing, of course)

It's like having a 2 year old child and going "Now son, I'm going to leave these delicious chocolate chip cookies sitting right here within reach of you. I'm going to the store to buy some Funyuns. Don't eat them. Bye!" When any caring parent would remove temptation, knowing that the child doesn't know any better.

So it's quite obvious to me that God WANTED man to F up royally. God created man with the sole purpose of imposing "original sin" upon him, so that he may feel guilty and grovel and ask forgiveness for something that wasn't his fault for all eternity.

That child who ate the cookies is now 40 and the parent is still bringing it up daily. "I don't care if you saved an orphanage from burning down today... remember when I told you not to eat those cookies and you did?"


Cain slays Abel and is "cast out" arbitrarily from one remote location of this empty world to another random remote location. Then he worries that "every one that findeth me shall slay me."

-This is a strange worry since he is 1 of 3 people in existence. Then he sleeps with his wife to start the incestual chain of humanity... but where did his wife come from?


6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days"

-I'm assuming these are literal giants and not "intellectual giants" or some modern term.


Then the Lord decides that all humanity is corrupt and needs to be massacred via flood.

-One... why the need for an elaborate flood? Why not just use your God powers and make every one not exist? You can only create from nothing, not turn into nothing? Two, were we not already told that men were made in His image? So either God is evil and corrupt, which is why we turned out like we did before and after the flood... or he is incapable of creating things how he wants. God is a flawed designer.

Maybe that's why he doesn't show his face anymore. He tried once, messed up and started over. Then he was like "whoa hold on, hold on. No, stop making more people. Wait, why did you kill that guy? Stop fucking! There's too many of you already! You know what!? Fuck this, I'm out!"


Then there's the Ark which I won't discuss do to redundancy. There are thousands of videos mocking this obvious nonsensical fairy tale already. The average thinker explaining the flaws of Noah and his ark is analogous to a world renowned chemist giving a lecture on the validity of alchemy.


Then Noah (the only righteous man in the world) gets hammered on wine and passes out naked.


Then the humans build an impressive tower and God (completely caught off guard) confuses them by making them speak multiple languages because their tower was more impressive than the one he made in shop class.


Many pages of slaves and servitude and historical inaccuracies and more incest


18:9 "And God said unto him, 'Where is Sarah thy wife?'" You're omnipotent, God. Quit messing with me. And stop asking about my wife, perv.


Lot offers his virgin daughters to a mob of rapists to appease their lust for the sexually attractive angels


God burns Sodom and Gomorrah to the ground, including all those "evil" children and newborn babies.


God turns Lot's wife in a pillar of salt just for kicks and giggles. Why exactly was it so wrong to look back at a village being assaulted by fire raining from the sky? If no one was supposed to look, perhaps God could've made the destruction a little more subtle.


Lot's daughters got their father drunk, then raped him." Yeah, I've been really drunk before, even drunk, high, and on acid at the same time. And not once during that time would I have "mistakenly" slept with my family members. Especially since they lived in a cave, separate from anyone that could have been confused for a bar skank.


21:1 "And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken. For Sarah conceived..."

-God made a booty call


For some reason, God takes human form and wrestles Jacob. He is losing so he cheats and gropes Jacob's inner thigh.


Various pages discerning which parts of the penis to chop off.


Onan is murdered by God for spooging on the ground instead of impregnating his brother's wife.


A 7000 page story about Joseph being thought dead, but actually not.


INTERMISSION


For those of you that read this far... Bravo, you bored and dedicated souls. Obviously all the books aren't as interesting or important as Genesis, and will be skipped over (I'm looking at you Psalms).

Now I continue on with Exodus. Ahem...

In addition to Gen 1:16

Genesis 1:16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth.

The stars gave light to the earth immediately, although the closest star, Alpha Centauri, is 4.3 light years away. So the very first star light would have taken 4.3 years to reach earth. The light we see from the Andromeda Galaxy takes 2.2 million years to reach earth, which also debunks the argument that the earth is only 6,000-10,000 years old.
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17-12-2013, 09:15 AM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
The bible was created by Constantine I, at the First Council of Nicaea (321ad). He instructed Eusebius of Caesarea to organize the compilation of a uniform collection of new writings developed from primary aspects of the religious texts submitted at the council. His instructions were:

"Search ye these books, and whatever is good in them, that retain; but whatsoever is evil, that cast away. What is good in one book, unite ye with that which is good in another book. And whatsoever is thus brought together shall be called The Book of Books. And it shall be the doctrine of my people, which I will recommend unto all nations, that there shall be no more war for religions' sake." (God's Book of Eskra, op. cit., chapter xlviii, paragraph 31)

"Make them to astonish" said Constantine, and "the books were written accordingly" (Life of Constantine, vol. iv, pp. 36-39). Eusebius amalgamated the "legendary tales of all the religious doctrines of the world together as one", using the standard god-myths from the presbyters' manuscripts as his exemplars. Merging the supernatural "god" stories of Mithra and Krishna with British Culdean beliefs effectively joined the orations of Eastern and Western presbyters together "to form a new universal belief" (ibid.). Constantine believed that the amalgamated collection of myths would unite variant and opposing religious factions under one representative story. Eusebius then arranged for scribes to produce "fifty sumptuous copies ... to be written on parchment in a legible manner, and in a convenient portable form, by professional scribes thoroughly accomplished in their art" (ibid.). "These orders," said Eusebius, "were followed by the immediate execution of the work itself ... we sent him [Constantine] magnificently and elaborately bound volumes of three-fold and four-fold forms" (Life of Constantine, vol. iv, p. 36). They were the "New Testimonies", and this is the first mention (c. 331) of the New Testament in the historical record. Its is suspected that Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus are possible surviving examples of these Bibles.

With his instructions fulfilled, Constantine then decreed that the New Testimonies would thereafter be called the "word of the Roman Saviour God" (Life of Constantine, vol. iii, p. 29) and official to all presbyters sermonizing in the Roman Empire. He then ordered earlier presbyterial manuscripts and the records of the council "burnt" and declared that "any man found concealing writings should be stricken off from his shoulders" (beheaded) (ibid.). As the record shows, presbyterial writings previous to the Council of Nicaea no longer exist, except for some fragments that have survived."
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17-12-2013, 02:21 PM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(16-12-2013 08:02 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I missed this in my last post:

(16-12-2013 05:21 PM)Alla Wrote:  Mary was descendent of David. His moral mother's blood was in Jesus.

Does the Bible ever explicitly list Mary's lineage or say that she was a descendant of David? If so, where?

By the way, I think you mean "mortal".
Thanks, I meant "mortal".
To your question. No, Bible doesn't say about Mary's lineage explicitly. Most likely Heli and Jacob were brothers which makes Joseph and Mary first cousins.
But if Mary was from tribe of Judah Jesus could have seed of David who also was from tribe of Judah.

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17-12-2013, 02:33 PM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(16-12-2013 10:16 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  
(16-12-2013 08:02 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I missed this in my last post:


Does the Bible ever explicitly list Mary's lineage or say that she was a descendant of David?

Yes. The daughter of Heli. And Joseph, by marrying Mary became the son-in-law of Heli.
(Hence the confusion among bible skeptics about how someone can have two 'fathers'.)

(16-12-2013 08:02 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  If so, where?...

Luke 3.

Thanks, although now, I'm super confused. I'm going to need you to explain that whole "Mary becomes a brother-in-law and two fathers part". Also, if Mary is his second "father", why do we get two (different!) lists of Joseph's genealogy?


(17-12-2013 09:15 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  The bible was created by Constantine I, at the First Council of Nicaea (321ad). He instructed Eusebius of Caesarea to organize the compilation of a uniform collection of new writings developed from primary aspects of the religious texts submitted at the council. His instructions were:

I thought of the idea that Biblical canon being established in the First Council of Nicaea was a misconception. That being said, it was gradually pieced together over a couple of centuries, and even then, different churches have different books in their "official" version of the Bible to this day. There are several more books in the Catholic Bible than there are in most Protestant versions. I think the Greek Orthodox church has some differences as well.
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17-12-2013, 03:23 PM (This post was last modified: 17-12-2013 06:31 PM by Alla.)
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(16-12-2013 07:54 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Actually, I just read Genesis 4, and he went to a new land (Nod), and named the city he built after his son that he had with his wife. But, was that his sister that he took with him, then? He made reference to anyone he ran into would kill him. He said this after being driven out of the land away from God. So, were there already other people living away from God?

How many exactly children did they have before Cain was born? Nobody knows.

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17-12-2013, 03:47 PM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(16-12-2013 07:54 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Actually, I just read Genesis 4, and he went to a new land (Nod), and named the city he built after his son that he had with his wife. But, was that his sister that he took with him, then? He made reference to anyone he ran into would kill him. He said this after being driven out of the land away from God. So, were there already other people living away from God?
Adam and Eve could have many children before they had Cain and Abel.
Cain was never called their firstborn.
How many children did they have before Cain was born? Nobody knows. God didn't reveal this info.

(16-12-2013 07:54 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Yeah, but how do you know? If the creation story can be an approximation to get simple people thinking about complex things, why can't the flood story be an approximation to scare them into obedience.
Of course, it can be. "how do I know what flood story means and that it happened?
Answer: I know because I have witness of Holy Ghost.
P.S. If you do NOT believe this story it is OK. You are not in big trouble.Smile
I believe there was flood and I told you why. And I even explained to you symbolism of the flood. I will repeat. If you know from the Bible there are 2 baptisms - water baptism and baptism of fire(Holy Ghost)
First water baptism then baptism of Holy Ghost or fire.
So, flood is water baptism of the Earth. And we know that before 2nd Coming it will be fire. Lord will burn all wickedness/wicked people.
I know all these symbols mean nothing to you. But they mean something to me.

(16-12-2013 07:54 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I mean, we know that it didn't actually happen. There's no evidence of a flood of that magnitude, and it's not like epic flood stories are unique to Judaism, or anything.
I don't know for sure that is why I do not argue with you but I believe what prophets and Holy Ghost testify.

(16-12-2013 07:54 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Again, how do you know?
Oh, I know this by the power of the Holy Ghost. I know that He/Jesus Christ is our Savior.

(16-12-2013 07:54 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  What if the whole idea of salvation and damnation are just approximations to incentivize a certain behavior? You have to realize that until Christianity, Judaism didn't have a belief in a distinct heaven and hell. They believed all people went to the same place when they died (Sheol, which means "grave"). Any time you see the word "Hell" used in the Old Testament, it's a translation of either "Sheol" or "Gehenna". Christianity took the whole heaven/hell-salvation/damnation motif from Zoroastrianism.
What traditional Christians teach about hell and heaven is absolutely FALSE doctrine/doctrines.
I don't want to take your time and explain how wrong it is but I will tell you this.
Without Savior or Redeemer is not possible for men(including Adam and Eve) to enter place where God Father lives. Why?
God is Mercy and Justice. When Adam broke the law he died SPIRITUALLY the same second. Sin brings spiritual death. Adam also had to pass through physical death/hell/Sheol.
we know that nothing sinful can enter into presence of God or His Kingdom.
God has 2 choices. To forgive Adam(Mercy), or to punish Adam(Justice)
To forgive sinner = eternal life with God. And it is Mercy. But where is Justice? God is not ONLY Mercy He is also Just Judge.
To punish Adam = he can not have eternal life and live with God. He should be in hell(spiritual death and physical death) forever. This is Justice but where is Mercy?
Atonement or Redemption is SOLUTION when Mercy and Justice can be satisfied.
Atonement makes sense if there is Fall story. If it was only Fall story and not Atonement then Fall story would not make any sense. If it was not Atonement story we wouldn't even know about Fall story and all other stories. We wouldn't need even Scriptures.


(16-12-2013 07:54 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  So, if "made from clay" can mean "made from complex science!" and "day" can mean "any random length of time" and "God said 'Let there be light' and there was light" could mean "there was already light and God made more of it", how do you know that any of the Bible means what it says it means?
Why do you get to determine what is literal and what is metaphorical? How do you decide what really happened and what is a parable?

I'm not saying you're wrong, per se, but I don't know how you can make the claims that you do.
When Holy Ghost testifies to me I know. There is no other way. If Holy Ghost does NOT testify to you then you can NOT know and that is why you do NOT have to believe anybody. You do NOT have to believe me. I may lie to you. I may be wrong. Right? But Spirit can testify to you and only then you will know if I am right or wrong.
I don't know if God will ever send you Holy Ghost (in THIS life) but at least you have an opportunity to see Scriptures under the angle you probably have never seen before.
(16-12-2013 07:54 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Okay, there is the possibility of it traveling down the lines of the women, although it seems unlikely, since they just didn't seem concerned about female lineage back than.

That being said, I read Genesis 4 and see nowhere in it that Cain was cursed beyond himself. I see no reference to a curse that passes down through his children. Is this given elsewhere, or just an extrapolation that someone made up?
Cain was cursed - separation from God. We have to note that mark is not the curse but to be separated from God is the curse.
We know from the books that Cain's seed was never God's people. They(children of Cain) became wicked people.
Ham's seed was cursed. His children had Cain's seed.
Genesis 4: if Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.
They were very wicked people they could not be with God/His people.
But we know that anybody who wants to make covenant with true God is very welcome and can be added to God's people(Abraham's and Israel's/Jacob's) seed.
[/quote]

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17-12-2013, 05:21 PM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(17-12-2013 03:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(16-12-2013 07:54 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Okay, there is the possibility of it traveling down the lines of the women, although it seems unlikely, since they just didn't seem concerned about female lineage back than.

That being said, I read Genesis 4 and see nowhere in it that Cain was cursed beyond himself. I see no reference to a curse that passes down through his children. Is this given elsewhere, or just an extrapolation that someone made up?
Cain was cursed - separation from God. We have to note that mark is not the curse but to be separated from God is the curse.
We know from the books that Cain's seed was never God's people. They(children of Cain) became wicked people.
Ham's seed was cursed. His children had Cain's seed.
Genesis 4: if Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.
They were very wicked people they could not be with God/His people.
But we know that anybody who wants to make covenant with true God is very welcome and can be added to God's people(Abraham's and Israel's/Jacob's) seed.
but where does it say that Ham had his seed or that the seed would pass on from Cain.

The word avenged means that someone will see that justice is done FOR you (typically after your death), not justice AGINST you. Read Genesis 4. Cain tells God that he will get killed and God tells him anyone who harms him will be punished. God wanted Cain to live out his days in punishment.

Where does it say his children were wicked? It's nowhere in Genesis 4. Is it elsewhere or are you making this up?
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17-12-2013, 06:10 PM (This post was last modified: 17-12-2013 06:32 PM by Buddy Christ.)
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
Alla, everything you've said so far can be summarized as, "I know this because the voices in my head told me so."

If you could kindly cite the bible verses as you refer to them, you would ease Robby's confusion and convince us that you're not just making all this up to suit your own desires - such as "God didn't call them firstborn, therefore we will assume that Adam and Eve gave birth to 63 children, a hamster, and a basket of homemade muffins."

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"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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