An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
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17-12-2013, 06:30 PM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
sorry

English is my second language.
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17-12-2013, 06:52 PM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(17-12-2013 05:21 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  The word avenged means that someone will see that justice is done FOR you (typically after your death), not justice AGINST you. Read Genesis 4. Cain tells God that he will get killed and God tells him anyone who harms him will be punished. God wanted Cain to live out his days in punishment.
OK, I can agree with you.
But ask yourself this question:
where does it say in the Bible that Cain's seed was a part of God's people?
Remember: not to be God's people/to be cut off from God is curse or punishment.
If only Cain was cursed/punished we would have testimonies of the prophets that Cain's descendent were part of house of Israel.

(17-12-2013 05:21 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Where does it say his children were wicked? It's nowhere in Genesis 4. Is it elsewhere or are you making this up?
OK.
If Cain's seed were righteous they would be God's people. We would have names of his sons with whom God made covenants/were people of the Lord.

And often when prophets say "Judah" or "Joseph" they talk about people and not only about one person. Or when they say "house of Jacob" they don't mean only Jacob's immediate family but all his posterity.

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17-12-2013, 07:07 PM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
RobbyPants Wrote:
Lion IRC Wrote:Yes. The daughter of Heli. And Joseph, by marrying Mary became the son-in-law of Heli.
(Hence the confusion among bible skeptics about how someone can have two 'fathers'.)

Luke 3.

Thanks, although now, I'm super confused. I'm going to need you to explain that whole "Mary becomes a brother-in-law and two fathers part". Also, if Mary is his second "father", why do we get two (different!) lists of Joseph's genealogy?

WUT?

Mary is the daughter of Heli.
Joseph marries Mary.
Josephs father in law is Heli.

Where did I say Mary becomes a brother in law?
You put quotation marks around that.
Who were you quoting?
Certainly not me.Angry
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17-12-2013, 07:10 PM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
Oh look!
My negative Rep has gone up from 5 to 6.
Let me see who I have made unhappy.
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17-12-2013, 09:03 PM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(17-12-2013 06:52 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(17-12-2013 05:21 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  The word avenged means that someone will see that justice is done FOR you (typically after your death), not justice AGINST you. Read Genesis 4. Cain tells God that he will get killed and God tells him anyone who harms him will be punished. God wanted Cain to live out his days in punishment.
OK, I can agree with you.
But ask yourself this question:
where does it say in the Bible that Cain's seed was a part of God's people?
Remember: not to be God's people/to be cut off from God is curse or punishment.
If only Cain was cursed/punished we would have testimonies of the prophets that Cain's descendent were part of house of Israel.

(17-12-2013 05:21 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Where does it say his children were wicked? It's nowhere in Genesis 4. Is it elsewhere or are you making this up?
OK.
If Cain's seed were righteous they would be God's people. We would have names of his sons with whom God made covenants/were people of the Lord.

And often when prophets say "Judah" or "Joseph" they talk about people and not only about one person. Or when they say "house of Jacob" they don't mean only Jacob's immediate family but all his posterity.

You made the assertion that Cain's seed was cursed and the curse would travel down his line. I read Genesis 4 twice and saw no mention of anyone being cursed except Cain. Nothing about his seed. The "mark" that he has is so that others no not to kill him.

So, I repeat: You are asserting that Cain's curse traveled down his line, down to Ham.Where does it say this? I want a Bible verse. Until you can give me an actual Biblical citation, I will assume you are just making this all up. I'm not asking you to explain it. I want a citation.


(17-12-2013 07:07 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  WUT?

Mary is the daughter of Heli.
Joseph marries Mary.
Josephs father in law is Heli.

Where did I say Mary becomes a brother in law?
You put quotation marks around that.
Who were you quoting?
Certainly not me.Angry

Ha! Nevermind. I reread it. I think it was something about the "marrying Mary" part that made my brain short circuit, or something.
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18-12-2013, 02:07 PM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(17-12-2013 09:03 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  So, I repeat: You are asserting that Cain's curse traveled down his line, down to Ham.
Let me correct you. I didn't say that curse travelled down to Ham. Ham was not one of Cain's sons.
I was saying about Ham's wife.

(17-12-2013 09:03 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Where does it say this? I want a Bible verse. Until you can give me an actual Biblical citation, I will assume you are just making this all up. I'm not asking you to explain it. I want a citation.[/size]
There is no verse that would say this specifically.
But Bible says that Cain with his wife went OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD.
Do you know what it means? A:To be out of the presence of the Lord is curse(withdrawal of a blessing). How about their children? Does any biblical prophet say that they lived in the presence of the Lord like other children of Adam?
Do we have name at least of one of the children of Cain that walked with the Lord(lived in His presence)?
A:We do not have.
P.S. I know that it doesn't matter for an atheist if Cain's seed was cursed or anything that Bible says but at least you can ask yourself some questions and see things that are said in the Bible under different angle.Smile

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18-12-2013, 02:24 PM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(17-12-2013 07:10 PM)Lion IRC Wrote:  Oh look!
My negative Rep has gone up from 5 to 6.
Let me see who I have made unhappy.

You poor misunderstood thing. There you are just being a good warrior for Christ and some dude comes along and NEGs you! I mean srsly WTF ? God! Do something about it! Your fearless warrior dun tooken a critical hitten! I suggest killing him and his family to the fourth generation. That'll teach people to neg YOUR chosen ones.

Rolleyes

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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18-12-2013, 03:25 PM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(18-12-2013 02:07 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(17-12-2013 09:03 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  So, I repeat: You are asserting that Cain's curse traveled down his line, down to Ham.
Let me correct you. I didn't say that curse travelled down to Ham. Ham was not one of Cain's sons.
I was saying about Ham's wife.

And where does it say that?


(18-12-2013 02:07 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(17-12-2013 09:03 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Where does it say this? I want a Bible verse. Until you can give me an actual Biblical citation, I will assume you are just making this all up. I'm not asking you to explain it. I want a citation.
There is no verse that would say this specifically.
But Bible says that Cain with his wife went OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD.
Do you know what it means? A:To be out of the presence of the Lord is curse(withdrawal of a blessing). How about their children? Does any biblical prophet say that they lived in the presence of the Lord like other children of Adam?
Do we have name at least of one of the children of Cain that walked with the Lord(lived in His presence)?
A:We do not have.

You are making the assertion that the curse traveled down the line. Now, you are saying there's no Biblical quote for this, but the fact that Cain and his wife lived out of the presence of the lord that that is the curse. Then you say that any of his children that lived out of the presence were also cursed, and assume this curse moved all the way down the line to Ham's wife...

Except there's nothing in the Bible that it happened. You are asserting that it happened because the Bible didn't say it didn't happen. That is really weird. Technically, the Bible didn't say Abraham wasn't a robot. Was Abraham a robot?

I have a very serious question for you: Why do you assume that Ham's wife was of the line of Cain? Is this Biblically supported or is this just to serve some other narrative?


Also, if "the Curse" is being out of the presence of God, wouldn't Ham's wife been in the presence of God when she was one of the eight people saved? Wouldn't the curse be lifted?



(18-12-2013 02:07 PM)Alla Wrote:  P.S. I know that it doesn't matter for an atheist if Cain's seed was cursed or anything that Bible says but at least you can ask yourself some questions and see things that are said in the Bible under different angle.Smile

That's fine. I'm just trying to figure out why you believe some of the things you say you believe. I can't think of anywhere in the Bible that it mentions some of these things, which is why I'm pressing you for sources.
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18-12-2013, 03:55 PM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
(18-12-2013 03:25 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  You are making the assertion that the curse traveled down the line. Now, you are saying there's no Biblical quote for this, but the fact that Cain and his wife lived out of the presence of the lord that that is the curse. Then you say that any of his children that lived out of the presence were also cursed, and assume this curse moved all the way down the line to Ham's wife...

Except there's nothing in the Bible that it happened. You are asserting that it happened because the Bible didn't say it didn't happen. That is really weird. Technically, the Bible didn't say Abraham wasn't a robot. Was Abraham a robot?
Yes, I agree with you that it would be silly to say that Abraham is robot because Bible doesn't say he is not.
I know about Cain's seed from another source/not the Bible. I do not accept the Bible as the only source that God gave to His children.

(18-12-2013 03:10 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I have a very serious question for you: Why do you assume that Ham's wife was of the line of Cain? Is this Biblically supported or is this just to serve some other narrative?
It is not biblicaly supported. I am using other source.

(18-12-2013 03:10 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Also, if "the Curse" is being out of the presence of God, wouldn't Ham's wife been in the presence of God when she was one of the eight people saved? Wouldn't the curse be lifted?
Curse can be lifted for every child(descendent) of Cain IF he or she changes: makes covenant with true God/lives by God's standards.

(18-12-2013 03:10 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  That's fine. I'm just trying to figure out why you believe some of the things you say you believe. I can't think of anywhere in the Bible that it mentions some of these things, which is why I'm pressing you for sources.
I am LDS.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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18-12-2013, 04:05 PM
RE: An atheist's critique of the Bible (Book and eBook now available)
Alla, there are some threads in this forum by former Mormons, about the LDS Church. I suggest you read them - I'd try find you a link but right now I'm about to go sleep - just remember to set your 'rude' meter to its lowest setting 'cos yeah, we're pretty dang rude Tongue But I'd be interested in your comments and... fair warning... I'm hoping they're gonna shake you up a bit. Not because I wanna you to come join me playing in hellfire when we're dead Tongue, but because I think questioning one's beliefs is healthy Smile

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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